With cotton bathed filters you get more dirt, BUT IT'S SUBMICRON PARTS. Won't hurt the engine, as black oil itself doesn't hurt it also. The harmfull stuff is filtered out.
Should I switch back to paper from K&N?
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Is an oil filter there to catch what passes an air filter, keep engine wear, both, or something else?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
With cotton bathed filters you get more dirt, BUT IT'S SUBMICRON PARTS. Won't hurt the engine, as black oil itself doesn't hurt it also. The harmfull stuff is filtered out.
There is more ring and cylinder wear with a K&N filter than a proper paper filter. This is a fact. That your engine has not yet failed due to this extra wear does not mean that the wear is not happening. Believe the guy who builds engines.
With cotton bathed filters you get more dirt, BUT IT'S SUBMICRON PARTS. Won't hurt the engine, as black oil itself doesn't hurt it also. The harmfull stuff is filtered out.
There is more ring and cylinder wear with a K&N filter than a proper paper filter. This is a fact. That your engine has not yet failed due to this extra wear does not mean that the wear is not happening. Believe the guy who builds engines.
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Is an oil filter there to catch what passes an air filter, keep engine wear, both, or something else?
The air filter is there to keep the engine from ingesting airborne particles that cause wear.
The oil filter is there to remove particles which cause wear from the engine oil. Some of those particles are generated from normal engine operation and wear. Some of those are particles which were not filtered out by the air cleaner. Other particles like hard carbon can form inside the engine due to oxidation.
Is an oil filter there to catch what passes an air filter, keep engine wear, both, or something else?
The air filter is there to keep the engine from ingesting airborne particles that cause wear.
The oil filter is there to remove particles which cause wear from the engine oil. Some of those particles are generated from normal engine operation and wear. Some of those are particles which were not filtered out by the air cleaner. Other particles like hard carbon can form inside the engine due to oxidation.
I've had a K&N in my '05 Hyundai Accent (120K on the odo) since I bought it and my UOAs also come back excellent. WRT the "more ring and cylinder wear" comment, here is a quote from my most recent UOA: "Averages show typical wear on a similar interval and your engine's making a whole lot less metal than average..."
Seems like that would be pretty hard if my K&N air filter was leading to more ring and cylinder wear.
Use one if you like. There are very few (or no) instances in which someone could demonstrate that a K&N filter is doing any harm to your engine, especially under normal use for a street vehicle. It's just like using one brand of oil over another; do what makes you feel happiest.
Seems like that would be pretty hard if my K&N air filter was leading to more ring and cylinder wear.
Use one if you like. There are very few (or no) instances in which someone could demonstrate that a K&N filter is doing any harm to your engine, especially under normal use for a street vehicle. It's just like using one brand of oil over another; do what makes you feel happiest.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: Pontual
With cotton bathed filters you get more dirt, BUT IT'S SUBMICRON PARTS. Won't hurt the engine, as black oil itself doesn't hurt it also. The harmfull stuff is filtered out.
There is more ring and cylinder wear with a K&N filter than a proper paper filter. This is a fact. That your engine has not yet failed due to this extra wear does not mean that the wear is not happening. Believe the guy who builds engines.
Lot's of engine builders would disagree...
Originally Posted By: Pontual
With cotton bathed filters you get more dirt, BUT IT'S SUBMICRON PARTS. Won't hurt the engine, as black oil itself doesn't hurt it also. The harmfull stuff is filtered out.
There is more ring and cylinder wear with a K&N filter than a proper paper filter. This is a fact. That your engine has not yet failed due to this extra wear does not mean that the wear is not happening. Believe the guy who builds engines.
Lot's of engine builders would disagree...
Does it matter where you are? If in the desert or middle Eastern country more dust is present so k&n is not a wise choice to go with.
If in colder regions such as European countries where there is less airborne particles k&n has less damage effects?
If in colder regions such as European countries where there is less airborne particles k&n has less damage effects?
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: bmod305
I used to rebuild dirt track engines-methanol & racing gas SBC. I could tell every time when the owner used a K&N filter-the rings were shot after 18-25 nights vs 40 or more nights with a quality paper filter. I probably rebuilt 75 or more SBC engines and everyone that used a K&N filter was worn more. Just my non-scientific observation.
Dave
Sounds like decent information if you ask me. About 50% increase in wear!
Yeah, I'll pay that as decent information.
Not quite sure why the OP wants positive proof of the filters "destroying" engines, but it's part of BITOG these days asking for same.
As to what lets the dirt in ....
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Two things,
1. How closely does this test resemble actual application use? Or, Is it as legit as the 'one armed bandit' test.
2. If someone decides to go with the results, the tester says...
'... I always heard on the 'net that paper filters best. It does, but it isn't as superior as I thought it would be. The K&N doesn't filter nearly as bad as the horror stories say,'
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: bmod305
I used to rebuild dirt track engines-methanol & racing gas SBC. I could tell every time when the owner used a K&N filter-the rings were shot after 18-25 nights vs 40 or more nights with a quality paper filter. I probably rebuilt 75 or more SBC engines and everyone that used a K&N filter was worn more. Just my non-scientific observation.
Dave
Sounds like decent information if you ask me. About 50% increase in wear!
Yeah, I'll pay that as decent information.
Not quite sure why the OP wants positive proof of the filters "destroying" engines, but it's part of BITOG these days asking for same.
As to what lets the dirt in ....
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
Two things,
1. How closely does this test resemble actual application use? Or, Is it as legit as the 'one armed bandit' test.
2. If someone decides to go with the results, the tester says...
'... I always heard on the 'net that paper filters best. It does, but it isn't as superior as I thought it would be. The K&N doesn't filter nearly as bad as the horror stories say,'
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Originally Posted By: stchman
I have been using a K&N in my engine since almost day 1. I had a UOA performed back at about 20K(I currently have 41K) and it came back good.
I have been hearing that K&N filters kill engines, let in massive amounts of dirt, blah, blah, blah.
My question is, have there been ANY documented cases of K&N air filters actually destroying engines? Are the claims just people saying they "feel" that K&N does not do the job?
I have heard arguments from both sides.
Thanks.
Interesting your UOA's came back okay.
I have been using a K&N in my engine since almost day 1. I had a UOA performed back at about 20K(I currently have 41K) and it came back good.
I have been hearing that K&N filters kill engines, let in massive amounts of dirt, blah, blah, blah.
My question is, have there been ANY documented cases of K&N air filters actually destroying engines? Are the claims just people saying they "feel" that K&N does not do the job?
I have heard arguments from both sides.
Thanks.
Interesting your UOA's came back okay.
Had K&N in three vehicles street driven. All showed dirt in the intake on the clean side. cleaned them out and went to Amsoil and AE dry and now they stay clean. I had Spectre in a couple cars and same thing but not as bad. One is a truck that goes off road in sand and Mt st Helen ash on occasion and one in a street car and even the truck was better than the K&Ns. I took those Spectre out and put in AC. From what I can see Spectre worked better than K&N but none were acceptable in my opinion. Also not as much light through the SPectre as I see through the K&N. Just my two cents. I still have one K&N and it is an air sucking 502 beast. I cannot find anything else that will fit and it is always dirty on the clean side... So I just clean it keep looking for another way. Clearance and the oval LS throttle body has me stuck sucking dirt for now. So while I have no clinical DATA I do have eyes not blinded by sales hyp. A white paper towel coming out brown is DATA point #1. Taking the intake tracks off and cleaning them with throttle body cleaner watching the brow liquid run out is DATA point #2. Changing to better filters and the brown stopping well that's Data point #3 and more than enough for me..
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Seeing this report online was enough to make me return a K&N air filter before I had gotten around to installing it.
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Yes, because an Internet test referencing 2009 Duramax diesel air filters where K&N posted a 96% efficiency rating can be applied across the board to every manufacturer/model/year vehicle ever made. Boy, that 96% also shows catastrophic engine failure is eminent inside ~750k miles.
re seeing light through the filters, this from Cummins.
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/SB_LT18727.pdf
Quote:
In a well-lighted area, inspect the gasket(s) for continuous adhesion and the absence of tears and cracks. In a darkened room, inspect the filter by placing a 60 watt light bulb inside the filter. Slowly rotate the filter while visually inspecting for weak spots or holes in the media identified by bright pin-holes of light. Discard if defects are detected.After cleaning and inspecting, permanently mark the filter with the cleaning method, the number of cleaning
Note that they are not stating categorically not to clean (limit 6 times 'though)...note also, I have a re-usable on my Nissan (not K&N), so am not averse to the concept...note also, that I've had other re-usable filters on a beater, and it was starry starry night.
Re the testing I linked to previously...if dirt is making it through the filter, to be collected on another, or be wiped off the intake, it's valid at testing filtration...the one armed bandit has nothing to do with your engine...they are not comparable
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/SB_LT18727.pdf
Quote:
In a well-lighted area, inspect the gasket(s) for continuous adhesion and the absence of tears and cracks. In a darkened room, inspect the filter by placing a 60 watt light bulb inside the filter. Slowly rotate the filter while visually inspecting for weak spots or holes in the media identified by bright pin-holes of light. Discard if defects are detected.After cleaning and inspecting, permanently mark the filter with the cleaning method, the number of cleaning
Note that they are not stating categorically not to clean (limit 6 times 'though)...note also, I have a re-usable on my Nissan (not K&N), so am not averse to the concept...note also, that I've had other re-usable filters on a beater, and it was starry starry night.
Re the testing I linked to previously...if dirt is making it through the filter, to be collected on another, or be wiped off the intake, it's valid at testing filtration...the one armed bandit has nothing to do with your engine...they are not comparable
wemay
Site Donor 2023
I can honestly say i have never had a dirty/dusty intake box on the clean side of the filter. But again, i'm not going to argue that K&N filters better than a high end paper disposable either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Originally Posted By: wemay
I can honestly say i have never had a dirty/dusty intake box on the clean side of the filter. But again, i'm not going to argue that K&N filters better than a high end paper disposable either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Given that we sometimes wake up to this
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1611131
I prefer to be on the clean end of the spectrum...there's nothing to be advantaged by letting more red dirt through.
The E30 had oiled gauze, and it was filthy downstream.
The Nissan was paper (later AFE, multiple layered oild gauze).
I can honestly say i have never had a dirty/dusty intake box on the clean side of the filter. But again, i'm not going to argue that K&N filters better than a high end paper disposable either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Given that we sometimes wake up to this
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1611131
I prefer to be on the clean end of the spectrum...there's nothing to be advantaged by letting more red dirt through.
The E30 had oiled gauze, and it was filthy downstream.
The Nissan was paper (later AFE, multiple layered oild gauze).
wemay
Site Donor 2023
I guess knowing that some people do have this issue with oiled gauze can lead to the decision by others to avoid even the chance of its occurance, so point taken. But the horror stories seem to grow legs and slowly widen their stride when it becomes a 'rock catcher' or 'engine destroyer'.
I don't currently own one for either Hyundai because i cancelled the Amazon order. Reason being that they wouldn't pay for themselves until ~200k miles. But if the economics were beneficial, things might have been different. I am also at a point in my life where better engine protection means more than the reusable environmental nature of the K&N. But i will not agree with all the cliché.
I don't currently own one for either Hyundai because i cancelled the Amazon order. Reason being that they wouldn't pay for themselves until ~200k miles. But if the economics were beneficial, things might have been different. I am also at a point in my life where better engine protection means more than the reusable environmental nature of the K&N. But i will not agree with all the cliché.
A paper filter needs to be loaded with a certain amount of dust before it reaches maximum efficiency, but a K&N needs to be loaded a lot, lot more. It says on the box to clean at 50,000 miles (80,000km for me). People are cleaning them far to often, and so they never get any efficiency. I've had them with the dust layered 1/4'' or more thick, they are working well then. The one in my bike has done 25,000km, hardly enough dirt on it to notice, so it won't be cleaned for a long, long time. Did a carb rebuild the other day - no dirt in my carbs or inlet tract.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: wemay
I can honestly say i have never had a dirty/dusty intake box on the clean side of the filter. But again, i'm not going to argue that K&N filters better than a high end paper disposable either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Given that we sometimes wake up to this
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1611131
I prefer to be on the clean end of the spectrum...there's nothing to be advantaged by letting more red dirt through.
The E30 had oiled gauze, and it was filthy downstream.
The Nissan was paper (later AFE, multiple layered oild gauze).
Wow! That was pretty extreme. My sister lives in Arizona and they get some pretty scary dust storms every year. Your pics remind me of that. Nothing like that here, thank goodness. Are either still running oiled gauze?
Originally Posted By: wemay
I can honestly say i have never had a dirty/dusty intake box on the clean side of the filter. But again, i'm not going to argue that K&N filters better than a high end paper disposable either. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Given that we sometimes wake up to this
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1611131
I prefer to be on the clean end of the spectrum...there's nothing to be advantaged by letting more red dirt through.
The E30 had oiled gauze, and it was filthy downstream.
The Nissan was paper (later AFE, multiple layered oild gauze).
Wow! That was pretty extreme. My sister lives in Arizona and they get some pretty scary dust storms every year. Your pics remind me of that. Nothing like that here, thank goodness. Are either still running oiled gauze?
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Silk
A paper filter needs to be loaded with a certain amount of dust before it reaches maximum efficiency, but a K&N needs to be loaded a lot, lot more. It says on the box to clean at 50,000 miles (80,000km for me). People are cleaning them far to often, and so they never get any efficiency. I've had them with the dust layered 1/4'' or more thick, they are working well then. The one in my bike has done 25,000km, hardly enough dirt on it to notice, so it won't be cleaned for a long, long time. Did a carb rebuild the other day - no dirt in my carbs or inlet tract.
And then there's the Donaldson Powercore, the definition of awesome
A paper filter needs to be loaded with a certain amount of dust before it reaches maximum efficiency, but a K&N needs to be loaded a lot, lot more. It says on the box to clean at 50,000 miles (80,000km for me). People are cleaning them far to often, and so they never get any efficiency. I've had them with the dust layered 1/4'' or more thick, they are working well then. The one in my bike has done 25,000km, hardly enough dirt on it to notice, so it won't be cleaned for a long, long time. Did a carb rebuild the other day - no dirt in my carbs or inlet tract.
And then there's the Donaldson Powercore, the definition of awesome
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Given that we sometimes wake up to this....
I haven't seen something like that here since Mount St. Helens!
Given that we sometimes wake up to this....
I haven't seen something like that here since Mount St. Helens!
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