Oil selection for Nissan MR20DE engine

[volodymyr]

Hello everyone,

I will be changing oil in a couple of months in my Nissan Qashqai 2.0 and I would like to ask for an advice regarding this subject.

It has a flat tappet DOHC engine (MR20DE) with valves regulated using shims. Engine specifications can be seen here: http://www.motorreviewer.com/engine/nissan_mr20de_20_qashqai.html

Owner manual recommends oils with the following specs:
"ACEA A1/B1 A3/B3, A3/B4, A5/B5, C2 or C3" SAE 5W-30 with OCI 15’000 km (9320 miles).

As you can see, the engine can use any type of oil and among the specs above I would like to find a best combination of engine wear/CAT wear protection. My OCI are usually around 12’000 km (7456 miles). The car does not consume any oil between changes. It has 63000 km (39146 miles) now.

I live in Switzerland, and fuel quality here is supposed to be very high here (10 ppm of sulpher). Nissan OD used 5W-40 oil in my car during its warranty period (ELF Evolution 900 NF 5W40, ACEA A3/B4)

As of now I am using Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.5. It is good oil; however I am concerned about its sulphated ash percentage which is 1.3 % according to Valvoline. I’ve read a lot about impact of ZDDP on CATs and would like to find better oil which will not compromise engine wear protection and keep CAT healty.

My driving conditions are relaxed, but I am living in uphill area with twisty roads, so every day I climb up for 3 km (2 miles) at altitude around 800 meters (2624 feet) (on a way back home, so engine is fully warmed up). Despite that the car sees some motorway driving every day with speed ~ 120 km/h (74 mph). On very rare occasions I take the car to Germany and it sees 160-180 km/h (111 mph) (happens maybe one time per 3 years).

The car is parked in underground garages (both at home and work) so it does not experience extreme freezing conditions. Maximum cold temperature during winter in garage is 0 C (32 F).

My questions are:

- is it okay to use 5W-30 oil when car is driving in motorways and does some uphill driving every day?

- is there any chance I can switch to Low SAPS oils and keep the same level of engine wear protection and increase protection of CAT? As discussed in another threads if Low SAPS oil meets MB 229.51 it has the same wear protection as MB 229.5, so it should be fine?

- any other oil spec recommendation given my conditions?

Thanks for any input on this,
Volodymyr.

 

[finmile]

If you want to use lower viscosity oil you should select oil with ACEA A5/B5 (full SAPS, 2.9 = 2.9) specification.

If you want a higher viscosity oil (HTHS >= 3.5) you should select oil with ACEA A3/B4 (full SAPS) or ACEA C3 (mid SAPS) specification.

As Nissan doesn’t require more stringent specification than plain ACEA xx, almost any full synthetic oil should be ok.

For normal freeway driving at 120 km/h the lower viscosity oil should be enough. For prolonged high speed driving at Autobahn the higher viscosity oil could be a better option.

Low/mid SAPS oils are designed to be friendlier to the catalytic converter than full SAPS oils.

What comes for the engine wear protection: There has been some discussion at BITOG that a low/mid SAPS oil might have a tiny bit worse engine wear protection than a full SAPS oil. But no real proof has been shown. And as your car has been designed for the mid SAPS oil in the first place, I see no issues at all to use ACEA C2 or C3 oils.

Furthermore, I bet you will gain significantly better engine protection with oil that has ACEA C3 & MB 229.51 specification than with ACEA A3/B4 oil which doesn’t have the MB spec. So, the low/mid/full SAPS is not an important factor of the oil, what comes to the engine wear.

So, if I were you, I would look for ACEA C2 or C3 oil boosted with some good manufacturer specification.

For the cold weather protection: Any 5W-xx oil is more than enough for your temperatures.

You can take a look from the link below how the ACEA xx and manufacturer specifications relate to each other, and make your final decision based on that.
https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html

 

[volodymyr]

Hello finmile,

Thanks for taking time to make an answer for my questions.

Originally Posted By: finmile
And as your car has been designed for the mid SAPS oil in the first place, I see no issues at all to use ACEA C2 or C3 oils.


Unfortunately, the fact that Nissan specifies pretty much any ACEA spec does not make it clear which is preferred one. I did not see any documentation on preference of low viscosity, low SAPS for MR20DE either.

Originally Posted By: finmile

Furthermore, I bet you will gain significantly better engine protection with oil that has ACEA C3 & MB 229.51 specification than with ACEA A3/B4 oil which doesn’t have the MB spec. So, the low/mid/full SAPS is not an important factor of the oil, what comes to the engine wear.


I forgot to mention that I do not consider any oils not meeting MB 229.5 or MB 229.51. In fact, on paper some of the low SAPS oils with Porsche C30 spec has even better engine wear protection (Lubrizol gives score 10 for engine wear protection) than the MB specs.

But this is all on paper, and in real life will Low SAPS hold as good as Full SAPS?

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I forgot to mention that I do not consider any oils not meeting MB 229.5 or MB 229.51. In fact, on paper some of the low SAPS oils with Porsche C30 spec has even better engine wear protection (Lubrizol gives score 10 for engine wear protection) than the MB specs.

But this is all on paper, and in real life will Low SAPS hold as good as Full SAPS?


Who knows. Pick the oil which "feels" the best, and start your own 500,000 km test. And remember to report here, when it's completed!

If money is not a concern, why not take Mobil 1.

Can't get better than this

- Mobil 1 New Life 0W-40: ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.5, VW 503.01, Porsche A40
- Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30: ACEA C2/C3, MB 229.51, VW 504.00, Porsche C30

Links to some previous discussions about this topic:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3790234/3
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3482441/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3564062/1

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr


My questions are:

- is it okay to use 5W-30 oil when car is driving in motorways and does some uphill driving every day?

- is there any chance I can switch to Low SAPS oils and keep the same level of engine wear protection and increase protection of CAT? As discussed in another threads if Low SAPS oil meets MB 229.51 it has the same wear protection as MB 229.5, so it should be fine?

- any other oil spec recommendation given my conditions?

Thanks for any input on this,
Volodymyr.



I can offer you my opinion based upon the facts that you stated above. If it were me, and that were my vehicle, then I would answer the questions as follows:

1. The 5W30 grade is absolutely fine for your vehicle. But there is something more important to it than just the grade... Its ACEA rating (and thus its HTHS value). A 5W30 with an A1 or A5 rating will have an HTHS value of between 2.9 and 3.5 - which means this is the "viscosity" that your bearings will "see" when under load. But, a 5W30 A3 oil which has an HTHS value of >3.5 will be thicker in your bearings. A thicker oil, if necessary, can provide protection under more strenuous conditions. If not necessary, then you simply use a tiny bit of extra fuel as a penalty for no reason. But if it were me, I would stick with exactly what you're using... an ACEA A3/B4 oil in either 5W30, 5W40, or 0W30 / 0W40. No need to get too hung up over the SAE grade of oil without also considering the HTHS / ACEA rating.

2. Since you live in a country with ultra low sulphur fuel, then yes, you can switch to a low-saps oil (ACEA C3 for example). But my question is, why? Your catalytic converters will not be harmed by A3 rated oil, especially considering the fact that your car does not use any appreciable amount of oil between changes. The cats can only be damaged by oil if your vehicle uses appreciable amounts of oil while driving, otherwise, there is really nothing to worry about. All gasoline-powered Euro vehicles in North America take a higher-saps A3 rated oil, with no ill effects on cat life. So you really have nothing to worry about. But if you want to try an ACEA C3 rated oil, you can, but just be sure that your TBN retention is good enough for your entire OCI, both summer and winter (will be worse in the winter due to longer vehicle warm-up). If so, then the choice is yours.

3. Again, no other recommendations from me other than the current ACEA A3 oil that you are using, or any type of equivalent oil that you might be able to obtain more easily or cheaply.

Good luck

 

[volodymyr]

il_signore97,

Originally Posted By: il_signore97

I can offer you my opinion based upon the facts that you stated above.


Thanks for a clear and rational explanation. I appreciate that. I will stick to ACEA A3/B4 with MB 229.5 specification therefore

Among the list of the oils available to me, I noticed that many 5W-30 which satisfy the above conditions are usually API SL/CF oils:

- Valvoline SynPower 5W–30
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30

However most of the 5W-40 oils are API SN/CF:

- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40
- Valvoline SynPower 5W-40
- Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40

The same more or less holds for 0W-30 (API SL/CF) and 0W-40 (API SN/CF) as well. The difference between SL and SN can be seen here: http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

Should I treat API SN as more favorable given the fact that oils I select will have ACEA A3/B4 and MB 229.5 already? I know, I am overzealous, but I am trying to find the reasons of staying or not staying in xW-30 grade.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Should I treat API SN as more favorable given the fact that oils I select will have ACEA A3/B4 and MB 229.5 already?

IMO, the API rating is irrelevant in this case. MB 229.5 spec exceeds both API SL and API SN.

 

[volodymyr]

Quattro Pete,

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

IMO, the API rating is irrelevant in this case. MB 229.5 spec exceeds both API SL and API SN.


True. However API SN is more friendly to CAT compared to API SL. So it should have a nice wear protection and levels of SAPS which influence CAT less compared to oils with API SL.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Quattro Pete,

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

IMO, the API rating is irrelevant in this case. MB 229.5 spec exceeds both API SL and API SN.


True. However API SN is more friendly to CAT compared to API SL. So it should have a nice wear protection and levels of SAPS which influence CAT less compared to oils with API SL.

Keep in mind that while API SN has a stricter limit on max phosphorus content (.08%) compared to API SL (0.10%), this stricter limit only applies to Xw-20 and Xw-30 grades. That's why you can have an Xw-30 and Xw-40 grade oil with the exact same additive package with the exact same amount of phos, and the Xw-40 grade can comply with API SN, but the Xw-30 grade cannot.

Good example of that is Castrol Edge 0w-30 and 0w-40 that we get over here. The first one carries API SL, while the second one carries API SN rating, despite both of them having the same add pack.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
il_signore97,


Thanks for a clear and rational explanation. I appreciate that. I will stick to ACEA A3/B4 with MB 229.5 specification therefore

Among the list of the oils available to me, I noticed that many 5W-30 which satisfy the above conditions are usually API SL/CF oils:

- Valvoline SynPower 5W–30
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30

However most of the 5W-40 oils are API SN/CF:

- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40
- Valvoline SynPower 5W-40
- Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40

The same more or less holds for 0W-30 (API SL/CF) and 0W-40 (API SN/CF) as well. The difference between SL and SN can be seen here: http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

Should I treat API SN as more favorable given the fact that oils I select will have ACEA A3/B4 and MB 229.5 already? I know, I am overzealous, but I am trying to find the reasons of staying or not staying in xW-30 grade.



As QuattroPete already explained, the API ratings are not very clear. Unfortunately, this creates difficulty in understanding exactly what standards the different oils conform to. As already stated, the ACEA A3 5W30's are exactly the same as the ACEA A3 5W40's. Even though the xW30's are rated API SL and the xW40's are rated API SN, they are the same.

The reason for this is that the API limits phosphorus in all xW20 and xW30 oils in order to attain an API SN rating. However, they do NOT limit phosphorus for xW40 or xW50 grade oils. Therefore, an oil with high ZDDP that is a 5W40 will pass the API SN specification because it is EXEMPT from the phosphorus limit. But, an equivalent 5W30 with the exact same additive package will not be able to pass the API SN testing because it is NOT exempt from the phosphorus limit.

Hopefully this and the previous responses from QP are clear. Basically, the 5W30 and 5W40 MB 229.5 oils that you have to choose from are pretty much the same, regardless of the API SL or SN rating.

 

[Olas]

Redline has more HTHS, more film strength and more additive. And it doesn't shear.
That's what your engine wants you to use

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Redline has more HTHS, more film strength and more additive. And it doesn't shear.
That's what your engine wants you to use

Redline is good oil, but I've got to go with the MB 229.5 M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-30/40 oils. Why? Its not just the spec levels, its the 24 Hour endurance races and Indy500 usage these oils get. (I haven't heard the Castrol is used at Indy, but M1 0w-40 has been.)
Like Doug Hillary's comments on M1 0w-40 and Castrol in the past, these oils stand up to some torture testing, very hard to improve on that in today's world.

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hello,
I thought this may be of interesting to some

I am in Nurburg is Germany - at the Nurburgring. The 38th annual 24hr race is underway. some things that may be of interest

1 - Mobil1 0W-40 is the oil used by Porsche in their race cars - including the new Hybrid! It is an "off the shelf" version! This was confirmed by the Engineers from Weissach when I was in the Pits!

2 - A Daimler AG Protoype Engineer (Unterturkheim now at Sindelfingen) who is staying here with me (and a Mercedes Team complement) confirmed the fact that using the correct viscosity is the answer

3 - Castrol's EDGE RS 10W-60 (SL/CF) is quite popular with some Teams (VW-Audi privateers). Some Teams use a SAE30 variant and some use 15W-50 - synthetics rule!!

 

[volodymyr]

il_signore97,

Originally Posted By: il_signore97

Hopefully this and the previous responses from QP are clear. Basically, the 5W30 and 5W40 MB 229.5 oils that you have to choose from are pretty much the same, regardless of the API SL or SN rating.


Thanks il_signore97. It is crystal clear now.

 

[volodymyr]

ExMachina,

Originally Posted By: ExMachina

Redline is good oil, but I've got to go with the MB 229.5 M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-30/40 oils.


In fact the M1 0w-40 is quite cheap here. It has a price difference of 1 $ per liter compared to the current oil I am using (Valvoline SynPower 5W-30, ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.5) and (probably) may be well worth the difference.

It is pity that M1 does not make xW-30 version of this oil. I was considering both M1 0W-40 and Castrol EDGE TITANUM FST 0W-40 back in the days however I decided to stick to Nissan's recommendation to 5W-30. No compromise.

This limited my choice as there were only 3 oils with SAE 5W-30 MB 229.5 available to me:

- Valvoline SynPower 5W–30
- Shell Helix Ultra Professional AB 5W-30
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30

Now when I feel I may soften the requirement of sticking to 5W-30 I am considering oils in the following order of preference:

(first preference batch)

- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 (yes, I still do consider sticking to 5W-30)
- Castrol EDGE Professional Titanium FST A3 0W-30
- Aral SuperTronic G 0W-30

(second preference batch)

- Castrol EDGE Titanium FST 0W-40 A3/B4
- Mobil 1 NEW LIFE 0W-40 (this oil in terms of amount of specifications is number#1)
- Shell Helix Ultra 0W-40

(third preference batch)

- Liqui Moly LEICHTLAUF HIGH TECH 5W-40
- Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40

It looks like the best oils are available in xW-40 weight which is not what Nissan wants us to use in this engine.

 

[SR5]

OP:
Owner manual recommends oils with the following specs:
"ACEA A1/B1 A3/B3, A3/B4, A5/B5, C2 or C3" SAE 5W-30 with OCI 15’000 km

SR5: I have the ACEA sequences here (dated Dec 2012) and I'll try and give you all the relevant details in one place. Note for simplicity all the greater than or less than signs also include equals. If somebody has more up to date sequences, I would be happy to get a copy.

Seq. ------- HTHS ------- TBN ------- Sulphated Ash
A1/B1 ---- >2.9 & 8 ------- A3/B3 ---- >3.5 -------- >8 ------- >0.9 & A3/B4 ---- >3.5 -------- >10 ------- >1.0 & A5/B5 --- >2.9 & < 3.5 --- >8 ------- C1 ------ >2.9 -------- [NA] ------ C2 ------- >2.9 ------- {NA] ------- C3 ------- >3.5 -------- >6 -------- C4 ------- >3.5 -------- >6 --------
I like A3/B4 oils best myself, but if I wanted low to mid SAPS I would go for a C3 oil. My reading of the above, is that it should not be possible to make a oil that is both A3/B4 and C3 (say), as the max sulphated ash for one is below then min sulphated ash for the other.

However, according to my Valvoline catalogue (dated 2015) they have:
SynPower XL-III 5W-30 rated ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL04, MB 229.51, VW 504/507
SynPower MST 5W-30 rated ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL04, MB 229.51, DEXOS 2, API SN/CF, VW 505.01

I don't quite get this unless the minimum sulphated ash content doesn't really matter, as long as it meets the other requirements and is below the maximum level. Which makes sense to me.

I have seen both these products on the shelf, and they were marked as above.
The blurb on the jugs implies that the MST is a mid SAPS oil for both Euro petrol and diesel engines, especially MB, BMW and Euro V engines.
For the XL-III it appears to be for long drain diesel engines, especially from VW.

I would use either for your applications, as it appears to be the best of both worlds.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
It is pity that M1 does not make xW-30 version of this oil. I was considering both M1 0W-40 and Castrol EDGE TITANUM FST 0W-40 back in the days however I decided to stick to Nissan's recommendation to 5W-30. No compromise.

It looks like the best oils are available in xW-40 weight which is not what Nissan wants us to use in this engine.


If two oils have the same HTHS viscosity, they both are as thick. So, if you decide to stick with ACEA A3/B4 or ACEA C3 oil, it doesn't matter much if the oil is labeled as xW-30 or xW-40.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3641426

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I have the ACEA sequences here (dated Dec 2012) and I'll try and give you all the relevant details in one place.

Seq. ------- HTHS ------- TBN ------- Sulphated Ash 2010 & 2012 --- 2008
A1/B1 ---- >2.9 & 8 ------- A3/B3 ---- >3.5 -------- >8 ------- >0.9 & span> --- span>
A3/B4 ---- >3.5 -------- >10 ------- >1.0 & span> --- >8 --- span>
A5/B5 --- >2.9 & < 3.5 --- >8 ------- C1 ------ >2.9 -------- [NA] ------ C2 ------- >2.9 ------- {NA] ------- C3 ------- >3.5 -------- >6 -------- C4 ------- >3.5 -------- >6 --------
I like A3/B4 oils best myself, but if I wanted low to mid SAPS I would go for a C3 oil. My reading of the above, is that it should not be possible to make a oil that is both A3/B4 and C3 (say), as the max sulphated ash for one is below then min sulphated ash for the other.

However, according to my Valvoline catalogue (dated 2015) they have:
SynPower XL-III 5W-30 rated ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL04, MB 229.51, VW 504/507
SynPower MST 5W-30 rated ACEA A3/B4/C3, BMW LL04, MB 229.51, DEXOS 2, API SN/CF, VW 505.01

I don't quite get this unless the minimum sulphated ash content doesn't really matter, as long as it meets the other requirements and is below the maximum level. Which makes sense to me.


I believe that the oils you listed meets only ACEA 2008.

In the ACEA Oil Sequences 2008 the A3/B3 and A3/B4 didn't have lower limits for the sulphated ash. So if an oil meets ACEA 2008 it can be A3/B4/C3 by having sulphated ash
In 2010 ACEA did fix this "leak" by introducing the lower limits for A3/B3 and A3/B4 => After that the A3/B3/B4 and C3 have been mutually exclusive.

In addition, the minumum TBN was raised from 8 to 10 for ACEA A3/B4 in 2010, which is probably impossible to reach with an ACEA C3 oil.

I think some manufactures use this ACEA 2008 trick to calm down consumers who are afraid of the mid SAPS oils. An oil with marking ACEA A3/B4/C3-08 seems like a better deal than plain ACEA C3.

 

[SR5]

Hi finmile,

Thanks so much for this explanation, very clear.

That answers my other question too, of why the similar Castrol Edge product is listed as only ACEA C3.

However, I'm a bit annoyed with Valvoline, as I looked closely on the bottle and in their product catalogue, and there is no date with their ACEA ratings, which by default means to me it should be the most up to date rating.

I feel valvoline is cheating a little. If they added the date, I would have been OK.

Thanks again for your help.
Regards,
SR5

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I feel valvoline is cheating a little. If they added the date, I would have been OK.

I may be wrong, but manufacturer are not supposed to add a date to ACEA specs, since they are supposed to use the latest, so in theory Valvoline is using the 2012 specs...but who knows?

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
Originally Posted By: SR5
I feel valvoline is cheating a little. If they added the date, I would have been OK.

I may be wrong, but manufacturer are not supposed to add a date to ACEA specs, since they are supposed to use the latest, so in theory Valvoline is using the 2012 specs...but who knows?


Yes, the ACEA specification is a little bit stupid, as the year is not required to be shown. The assumption is what Popsy wrote, that the manufacturer is always using quite new specification, defined by the table below.

In ACEA Oil Sequences 2012 one can find the following text and table:
http://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/2012_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf

When a new ACEA sequence is introduced, oils with claims against the previous can be marketed only for another two years.

Sequence issue --- First allowable use --- Mandatory for new claims --- Oils with this claim may be marketed until
2004 --- 1st November 2004 --- 1st November 2005 --- 31st December 2009
2007 --- 1st February 2007 --- 1st February 2008 --- 23rd December 2010
2008 --- 22nd December 2008 --- 22nd December 2009 --- 22nd December 2012
2010 --- 22nd December 2010 --- 22nd December 2011 --- 22nd December 2014
2012 --- 14th December 2012 --- 14th December 2013 --- ...

So, be warned that I'm not 100% sure if my theory is correct or not.

According to the table above it shouldnt't be possible to have an oil with ACEA 2008 specification anymore. But the theory does fit quite nicely to an oil which states that it meets ACEA A3/B4/C3. And I have seen other oils also with this trio, other than Valvoline.

It could be a good idea to ask from an oil company, that what year's ACEA specification their oil with A3/B4/C3 spec meets and how is it possible to meet all three at the same time. But I haven't got motivation to do that.