Motul 300V 0W40 or M1 0W40 ?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: chrisri

If you look into ACEA 12 oil sequences you will see that max camshaft scuffling wear is the same for A3/B4 and C3 oils.


But may not be the same for LL-01, MB229.5, Porsche A40....etc. Often there is an OEM approval that's required above and beyond the ACEA one.

When it comes to MB specifically, the wear limits for MB 229.5 spec (full SAPS) are exactly the same as for MB 229.51 spec (low/mid SAPS). Same goes for LL-01 vs LL-04.

However, then there is the whole notion of just meeting the spec vs. exceeding it. All these wear tests are just pass/fail, so we don't know if a given oil passed it with an A grade or just C-.

And then of course the other ever present question: does it really matter to an engine during its normal useful life?



Question for you:

I used the Lubrizol tool and looked at the "relative performance limits" for the various Mercedes and VW specs and noted, as you stated, that they are the same. My question is, is the test rig used to test these limits the same?

I'm also curious as to why the S62 was singled out as not being acceptable to use LL-04 in it (which, by definition, has lower Zinc/Phos) but basically all the others are

The easy answer is that the levels of those additives are relevant to that engines health, but I'm not sure that it is the real answer, or one that is complete enough.

 

[chrisri]

So pretty much both LL-01 and 04 are interchangeable with exceptions of two engines.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
So pretty much both LL-01 and 04 are interchangeable with exceptions of two engines.


Yup, that's what I gleaned from the chart. And hey, I DID say earlier on that there might be specific examples, and it looks like we found some

I imagine though, as per your earlier point, that many (most?) can be safely run on the newer oils.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Question for you:

I used the Lubrizol tool and looked at the "relative performance limits" for the various Mercedes and VW specs and noted, as you stated, that they are the same. My question is, is the test rig used to test these limits the same?

When it comes to BMW, wear test is done on an N42 engine, for both LL-01 and LL-04 spec.

When it comes to MB, I don't know, but you would think it would have to be the same test environment. Otherwise, how could you possibly compare them in a table? The MB test regimen is actually quite detailed and you can see it in the Afton manual.

Quote:

I'm also curious as to why the S62 was singled out as not being acceptable to use LL-04 in it (which, by definition, has lower Zinc/Phos) but basically all the others are

The easy answer is that the levels of those additives are relevant to that engines health, but I'm not sure that it is the real answer, or one that is complete enough.

Sorry, no idea on this one. Didn't some of these engines have all sorts of issues initially that BMW was attempting to cover up with a special oil (Castrol TWS)?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

When it comes to BMW, wear test is done on an N42 engine, for both LL-01 and LL-04 spec.


That makes the S62 thing even more confusing then.....

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

When it comes to MB, I don't know, but you would think it would have to be the same test environment. Otherwise, how could you possibly compare them in a table? The MB test regimen is actually quite detailed and you can see it in the Afton manual.


I don't think they are meant to be compared in a table, they are limits and the relative performance tool is just that, relative. The tests have obviously very strict limits but my thought is that the rigs might be different but it looks like we don't know

What DOES tie into our other thread is Porsche A40 though, which applies to both full and mid-SAPS oils. Are there any low SAPS oils with this approval?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think they are meant to be compared in a table, they are limits and the relative performance tool is just that, relative.

I meant the tables in Afton manual, sorry. The way the test methodologies are presented, it would be really misleading if the tests themselves were different for different specs.

Quote:

What DOES tie into our other thread is Porsche A40 though, which applies to both full and mid-SAPS oils. Are there any low SAPS oils with this approval?

Porsche A40 is a full SAPS spec. Porsche C30 is a mid/low SAPS spec.

Actually, now that I look at it, C30 is more strict when it comes to wear, at least if you trust Lubrizol.

Porsche C30 is the same spec as VW 504.00/507.00, by the way.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Actually, I take that back... both A40 and C30 appear to have the same SAPS limit (1.5). Weird.

 

[OVERKILL]

Also, FYI, AMSOIL's mid-SAPS Euro oil is formally approved for A40, 229.51 and LL-04.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Also, FYI, AMSOIL's mid-SAPS Euro oil is formally approved for A40, 229.51 and LL-04.


Actually AFL is not formally approved.

As a consequence of reading another thread, I have come to further understand the way a product is represented by the marketing men/manufacturers.

The Amsoil website has an asterisk next to the Manufacturer Approvals heading.
At the bottom of the 3 listings, it has "Recommended For" with an asterisk next to it.
I take this to mean that Amsoil recommends the oil for those standards, but the oil is not actually approved by the manufacturers.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Ducman
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Also, FYI, AMSOIL's mid-SAPS Euro oil is formally approved for A40, 229.51 and LL-04.


Actually AFL is not formally approved.

As a consequence of reading another thread, I have come to further understand the way a product is represented by the marketing men/manufacturers.

The Amsoil website has an asterisk next to the Manufacturer Approvals heading.
At the bottom of the 3 listings, it has "Recommended For" with an asterisk next to it.
I take this to mean that Amsoil recommends the oil for those standards, but the oil is not actually approved by the manufacturers.


It states:

Quote:
APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL European Car Formula Mid-SAPS Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated to meet or exceed the most demanding European specifications. It is engineered for European gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following performance specifications:

Manufacturer Approvals*:

BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40

Recommended For*:

ACEA C3
API SN/SM/CF...
Chrysler MS-10850 (supersedes MS-10896)
Ford WSS-M2C917-A
GM dexos2™ (supersedes LL-A-025 and LL-B-025)
Renault RN0700/RN0710
Volkswagen 502.00/505.01

* All trademarked names and images are the property of their respective owners. No affiliation or endorsement, express or implied, is provided by their use.


The astericks clearly defined at the bottom of that section.

Their verbiage for a non formally approved oil, like the EFM reads like this:

Originally Posted By: AMSOIL

APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated to meet or exceed the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European gasoline and diesel vehicles requiring any of the following performance specifications:

API SN/SM
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
BMW LL-01
Mercedes-Benz 229.3, 229.5
Porsche A40
Renault 0710, 0700
Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00

 

[volodymyr]

Quattro Pete,

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Actually, I take that back... both A40 and C30 appear to have the same SAPS limit (1.5). Weird.


Yes, this is bizzare. Fuchs says the following:

Quote:
A40 For all Porsche gasoline engines (SAE 0W-40, 5W-
40/50) and VW gasoline engines without LonglifeService
(SAE 0W-40, 5W-40).

C30 For all gasoline engines of VW make with and without
Longlife-Service and for all VW-Diesel engines
(always SAE 5W-30). Identical to
VW 504 00 / 507 00.


(taken from http://www.fuchs-oil.se/uploads/media/TITAN_Motor_Oils_Flyer_GB_1-2012_01.pdf)

Now, this is really strange taking into account that C30 is often combined with ACEA C3 and MB 229.51 which have lower SAPS levels

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Actually, I take that back... both A40 and C30 appear to have the same SAPS limit (1.5). Weird.

C30 specification is used for Volkswagen derived V6 Cayenne thing, and indeed is a mid SAPS formula.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: chrisri
So pretty much both LL-01 and 04 are interchangeable with exceptions of two engines.


Yup, that's what I gleaned from the chart. And hey, I DID say earlier on that there might be specific examples, and it looks like we found some

I imagine though, as per your earlier point, that many (most?) can be safely run on the newer oils.


There certainly are exceptions like that specific BMW engine. Ferrari and maybe Maserati still use Ultra 5w40, but they are in a different league altogether.

 

[volodymyr]

So, after this discussion I am starting to think that Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 might work well in my flat tappet engine conditions. It has the following specs:

ACEA C3
MB 229.31/229.51
BMW Longlife-04
Porsche C30
VW 504 00/507 00

This oil has ACEA C3 so in theory it should be low SAPS: sulphated ash is At the same time the oil has Porsche C30 which has sulphated ash
My Nissan engine MR20DE lists the following specs as acceptable: ACEA A1, A2, A3, A5, C2, C3, C4. The engine is flat tapped, runs on Euro 5 fuel only.

I plan to have 15'000 km intervals (9320 miles) max. Any ideas?

P.S. In reality I never reach more than 12'000 km per year

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
This oil has ACEA C3 so in theory it should be low SAPS: sulphated ash is At the same time the oil has Porsche C30 which has sulphated ash

If it meets ACEA C3, then it's mid/low SAPS. Porsche C30 apparently doesn't care what level of sulphated ash it has.