Safest way to wreck a bike?

[Hokiefyd]

I witnessed a motorcyclist get killed on Monday evening. He was on a crotch rocket and flew down the open right-hand turn lane (left and center lanes had stopped traffic) when someone turned across his lane in a Tundra. I saw the Tundra with a smashed side door and the bike on the ground. I knew he didn't have a chance.

It got me to thinking. If the motorcyclist had enough reaction time, is it safer to try to lay the bike down (or jump off) and slide, or do you have a better chance trying to work the brakes and ride it out?

I don't think this biker had any reaction time. I'd say that he was already at the speed limit and accelerating (I heard at least two gears wind up before it went silent), so he probably never saw it coming. But assuming you can see peril in front of you -- what's the best way to attempt to minimize hurt?

 

[4wheeldog]

Using the brakes (And tires) to the limits of their power will burn off much more speed than metal sliding on asphalt. Or the human body sliding, as the case may be.

Think about it......Faced with the same situation, would you jump out of your car, in an attempt to lose speed, before hitting another object?

Those motorcyclists that say the trite "I had to lay it down" are actually saying, "A lack of skill in controlling the brakes on my motorcycle upset the stability, and the bike crashed, before I hit the object in front of me!" It was/is not a conscious decision, it is the result of over braking, or at least, unbalanced braking.

Sorry you had to witness the events you did the other night......Suffice it to say, it was a failure of hormones, likely with a very inexperienced, over confident boy on a bike.

 

[mrsilv04]

There's no such thing as "safe" or "safest" when on a motorcycle. Safe means "protected from, or not exposed to danger or risk". Nope. Not possible on a motorcycle.

MSF teaches to put the trust in your brakes, and many bikes now have ABS.

"Laying it down" is an old school thing.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Suffice it to say, it was a failure of hormones, likely with a very inexperienced, over confident boy on a bike.


It's FAR too common here. It was a 19 year old Soldier with a newish looking Yamaha. As much as you have to watch for other cars around here, you REALLY have to watch for motorcyclists. They often come from behind with 20+ mph speed differences and split lanes, so you really have to drive defensively so that you don't bury one. I've generally taken to not changing lanes unless I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
There's no such thing as "safe" or "safest" when on a motorcycle.


I didn't ask if there's a safe way. I asked what is the safest way. Safest implies relativity. There are certainly ways of going about things that are safer than others. Riding with a helmet is generally safer than riding without one. It's relative. Sitting inside a pickup truck is general safer than riding in the bed.

My question about laying the bike down was more along the lines of, could a rider avoid a collision or somehow try to slide away from it by getting off the bike rather than riding it into the side of another vehicle? I know that brakes are the best way to scrub speed, but if the rider could somehow remove his body from the collision, or try to take a more glancing blow, it might could minimize damage.

From responses, it sounds like that's not really a reasonable scenario -- and brakes are the best way to try to minimize the pain.

 

[Hokiefyd]

http://abc11.com/news/police-charges-likely-in-crash-that-killed-soldier/832258/

I trust the investigation that said the motorcyclist wasn't speeding, but he accelerated rapidly (I heard acceleration through one gear, then a gear change, then continued acceleration, then silence).

Drivers motioned the Tundra across. The right lane was clear when he was motioned across. It couldn't have taken but a few seconds for that biker to be there; he appeared too quickly for anyone to have seen him.

Also: like the article said, that intersection is horrible -- traffic very often stops waiting for the light, and people try to let folks turn. I don't know why people try to turn there. They can use either of two traffic signals to get to the same place. I don't personally think saving the 30 seconds is worth the risk involved, but people do it all the time.

I don't know what charges they're considering for the Tundra driver.

 

[IndyIan]

Rider training is the best way to minimize injury. I tiptoe through a situation like that in my car, ready to hit the brakes, not sailing through above the speed limit.
Grabbing gears on a sport bike though that intersection is just inexperience catching up with the guy...
Do any bikes have air bags yet? I suppose with ABS and an airbag, a bike could stay upright and smack into a car and absorb a lot of energy for the rider. Often in a similar accidents the passenger on a bike survives relatively uninjured, while the rider is killed.

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
My question about laying the bike down was more along the lines of, could a rider avoid a collision or somehow try to slide away from it by getting off the bike rather than riding it into the side of another vehicle? I know that brakes are the best way to scrub speed, but if the rider could somehow remove his body from the collision, or try to take a more glancing blow, it might could minimize damage.

From responses, it sounds like that's not really a reasonable scenario -- and brakes are the best way to try to minimize the pain.


If it is possible to avoid the collision, staying on the bike, and turning it to the clear spot is much more effective than trying to guide your sliding body to safety.

The best tactic is generally to "Aim for the tail"......It is unlikely that a car is going to back up in this sort of situation, so attempting to go where it has been, rather than beat it by going in front of it, is a better bet.

Best is to anticipate that it might be there, in the first place, and leave yourself an out, with reduced speed, and maintenance of room in front of you.

But we all know that......It is the invincible among us that try to exceed these limits.

 

[grumpyoldman]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Using the brakes (And tires) to the limits of their power will burn off much more speed than metal sliding on asphalt. Or the human body sliding, as the case may be.

Think about it......Faced with the same situation, would you jump out of your car, in an attempt to lose speed, before hitting another object?

Those motorcyclists that say the trite "I had to lay it down" are actually saying, "A lack of skill in controlling the brakes on my motorcycle upset the stability, and the bike crashed, before I hit the object in front of me!" It was/is not a conscious decision, it is the result of over braking, or at least, unbalanced braking.

Sorry you had to witness the events you did the other night......Suffice it to say, it was a failure of hormones, likely with a very inexperienced, over confident boy on a bike.


I agree with 4wheeldog; good analogy with jumping out of a car.

I've been in one accident in my motorcycling life. An oncoming SUV made a left turn in front of me. I got on both brakes hard while trying to steer left to avoid flipping & breaking my neck on her hood (it's amazing how much you can think about & do in that second between oh sh*t & impact). My front tire hit her right rear one. I was braced for impact & hung onto the bars as best I could to try to make sure my head wasn't the first thing to hit something. At impact I was catapulted off & hit the rear door with the right/rear side of my body, breaking 3 ribs. The violence of impact was unbelievable, as was the pain. I was going only ~25 mph before getting on the brakes.

I went back later to look, and I left about a 12-foot skid (don't know if it was the front or rear but I assume rear) & was only able to move left by about a foot. I consider myself a reasonably skilled rider with plenty of track day maximum-braking practice. My advice is stay on the bike, try to avoid impact, and, if you can't, brake brake brake.

 

[Inspecktor]

If the bike stays on its wheels, you can brake and maneuver, and if you cannot avoid an accident, a least more energy can be scrubbed off before impact. Once the bike is on the ground, it is a ballistic missile (and so is the rider). Rubber has a much higher coefficent of friction than steel. A motorcyclist is less likely to have an accident if riding at a speed comparable to surrounding traffic, minimize sudden changes in speed and direction, and maximizing visibility.

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Suffice it to say, it was a failure of hormones, likely with a very inexperienced, over confident boy on a bike.


It's FAR too common here. It was a 19 year old Soldier with a newish looking Yamaha. As much as you have to watch for other cars around here, you REALLY have to watch for motorcyclists. They often come from behind with 20+ mph speed differences and split lanes, so you really have to drive defensively so that you don't bury one. I've generally taken to not changing lanes unless I absolutely have to.



It is not just soldiers. The most dangerous period in a motorcyclist's riding career are the first couple of weeks. It is very, very common for new high powered motorcycles to return to where they were bought on a wrecker, within the first 2 weeks after the sale.

And......All these guys need the fastest, most powerful bike available. (Warning......Preaching about to start).

Back before the earth cooled, and I was starting out into the motorcycle world, common thought was that a 250 to 350cc motorcycle was a good place to start, for street riding. After you had enough time on your "Learner" bike, you might move up to a 450/500 or maybe a 650. A 650 back then would make all of 40hp, if it was new and in particularly good tune. My first "Big bike" (After several steps on the way) was a Honda 750, the hot rod of its day.......Honda optimistically rated it at 67hp.

Now, these noobies think they need at least 1000cc, with 150hp. Many of them buy even bigger bikes, with 175hp or more. This, with zero street experience. It is a recipe for very rapid disaster.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
It is not just soldiers.


Certainly not. But, Soldiers tend to be higher risks in my observation, due to a few factors:

* Most of them are younger, and have combat pay burning in their back pockets (so they buy the big bikes).
* Infantry and Airborne guys are pumped full of figurative testosterone, being taught that they're immortal.
* Many are taught aggressive driving while in theatre to survive.

Driving in Fayetteville, NC, is very unique. It's a broad mix of some unconventional driving techniques. Combine that with young peoples' desire for speed and an always-amped environment of physical and combat training...it can make for a dicey situation.

(And I know that I'm straying from the topic here -- I do appreciate the responses, and I think my question has been answered.)

 

[spasm3]

I'd stay on the bike as long as possible, you will decelerate more if you stay on using the brakes. Laying it down will cause you to have a higher impact speed. Maybe only lay it down if you could slide under an 18wheel trailer turning left in front of you, but past that stay on the bike and decel as much as possible.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Suffice it to say, it was a failure of hormones, likely with a very inexperienced, over confident boy on a bike.


It's FAR too common here. It was a 19 year old Soldier with a newish looking Yamaha. As much as you have to watch for other cars around here, you REALLY have to watch for motorcyclists. They often come from behind with 20+ mph speed differences and split lanes, so you really have to drive defensively so that you don't bury one. I've generally taken to not changing lanes unless I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
There's no such thing as "safe" or "safest" when on a motorcycle.


I didn't ask if there's a safe way. I asked what is the safest way. Safest implies relativity. There are certainly ways of going about things that are safer than others. Riding with a helmet is generally safer than riding without one. It's relative. Sitting inside a pickup truck is general safer than riding in the bed.

My question about laying the bike down was more along the lines of, could a rider avoid a collision or somehow try to slide away from it by getting off the bike rather than riding it into the side of another vehicle? I know that brakes are the best way to scrub speed, but if the rider could somehow remove his body from the collision, or try to take a more glancing blow, it might could minimize damage.

From responses, it sounds like that's not really a reasonable scenario -- and brakes are the best way to try to minimize the pain.


I just don't get this constant "splitting lanes" stupidity people on motorcycles insist on doing. Isn't the whole purpose of divided lanes to keep traffic,um,divided? I would never in a million years split lanes or breach the flow of traffic while on a motorcycle. If someone splits lanes and then gets run over,unfortunately their own stupidity lead to their demise

 

[FastGame]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Do any bikes have air bags yet? I suppose with ABS and an airbag,


They have this if you have the $$$$ https://www.google.com/search?q=airbag+motorcycle+suit&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

That kid had no chance at all, everything happens so fast. There's an intersection in Port Huron Mi. that leads the State in accidents for the very same reason this kid died. When I ride that road I stay in the left lane because I know people will stop in to let another driver make a left turn, bad news if you are in the right lane...

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Saw something similar a few years ago. Was headed down 81S and I got passed by a guy going > 100 on a motorcycle. I said to myself "would be something if he Darwin'd himself".

Not 3 minutes later, we're at a standstill and the road is shut down because he hit an overpass at triple digit speeds.

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just don't get this constant "splitting lanes" stupidity people on motorcycles insist on doing. Isn't the whole purpose of divided lanes to keep traffic,um,divided? I would never in a million years split lanes or breach the flow of traffic while on a motorcycle. If someone splits lanes and then gets run over,unfortunately their own stupidity lead to their demise

Not to hijack the thread, but......Splitting lanes is legal only in CA.......And most of the rest of the world, outside the US and Canada.

Studies have been done in CA, and splitting lanes in heavy traffic has proven to be quite a bit safer, than sitting in line, waiting to get hit from behind (Which is the most common way for a MC rider to get hit, in freeway traffic). It is not intuitive, but, if the rider has good sense, and his own safety at heart, splitting lanes is actually safer for all concerned, and does not penalize the 4 wheeled vehicle operator at all.

 

[NHGUY]

Look at the Bud Ekins cycle slide in "Bullitt",the Mustang still almost drove over him.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I just don't get this constant "splitting lanes" stupidity people on motorcycles insist on doing. Isn't the whole purpose of divided lanes to keep traffic,um,divided? I would never in a million years split lanes or breach the flow of traffic while on a motorcycle. If someone splits lanes and then gets run over,unfortunately their own stupidity lead to their demise

Not to hijack the thread, but......Splitting lanes is legal only in CA.......And most of the rest of the world, outside the US and Canada.

Studies have been done in CA, and splitting lanes in heavy traffic has proven to be quite a bit safer, than sitting in line, waiting to get hit from behind (Which is the most common way for a MC rider to get hit, in freeway traffic). It is not intuitive, but, if the rider has good sense, and his own safety at heart, splitting lanes is actually safer for all concerned, and does not penalize the 4 wheeled vehicle operator at all.


I still just don't get it. Simple physics in this scenario just don't pan out. If multiple dividing lanes are flowing,breaching the flow and hoping you click right into another flowing lane just doesn't make sense. Seems to me it's just taking a gamble and hoping for positive outcome. Lanes are there for a reason. Imagine if tiny little Smart Cars or Mini Coopers started doing this. I'd rather wait my turn in line on my motorcycle rather than weave between lanes and hope to God that 18 wheeler doesn't decide to want to change lanes at the last minute in front of me.

 

[JC1]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I witnessed a motorcyclist get killed on Monday evening. He was on a crotch rocket and flew down the open right-hand turn lane (left and center lanes had stopped traffic) when someone turned across his lane in a Tundra. I saw the Tundra with a smashed side door and the bike on the ground. I knew he didn't have a chance.

It got me to thinking. If the motorcyclist had enough reaction time, is it safer to try to lay the bike down (or jump off) and slide, or do you have a better chance trying to work the brakes and ride it out?

I don't think this biker had any reaction time. I'd say that he was already at the speed limit and accelerating (I heard at least two gears wind up before it went silent), so he probably never saw it coming. But assuming you can see peril in front of you -- what's the best way to attempt to minimize hurt?



Was he wearing a helmet?

 

[sunruh]

oh this is too easy to answer:

stand next to it and push it over!

lol thats the easiest way to wreck a bike