Oil for 2013 Camaro ZL1 road course application

[BaylorCamaro]

Good Morning Everyone,

I've spent a good deal of time researching both on here and other forums along with discussing with a couple engine builders and road course enthusiasts. However I wanted to get the input from some of you oil guru's as well.

A little background first, I track (road course) my 2013 Camaro ZL1 (6.2L supercharged engine). it is lightly modded: full exhaust, intake, injectors, tune, some suspension and cooling things, making just shy of 600 rwhp. I've been doing HPDE events for about a year now and have logged about 500-600 track miles. I started off with the factory oil, Mobil 1 5w-30 and made the switch fairly early on to Pennzoil Platinum under the suggestion of one of the engine builders I know. Unfortunately I didn't have access to 5w-30 or the Ultra Platinum (only Platinum) so I've been using 10w-30. I live in Houston Texas and combine that with a forced induction engine doing 20-30 minute track sessions, the heat that is generated is something that would make the devil himself sweat. Generally my oil temps get to around 290-295 at the end of a session. Hot I know, but oil analysis shows the viscosity is still good and no signs of sheering/degrading.

My last track event Alec Udell, pro driver of the #17 GMG Porsche GT3 Cup car in the Pirelli World Challenge did a 20-30 minute stint in my car with me ridding shotgun and unfortunately we got an engine overheat warning, the radiator coolant temp was maxed out on the analog gauge (can't remember what temp that is) so we did a cool down lap and brought it in to sit and cool. Later that day I was really pushing the car and it started to overheat again, so with that being the second time in the day (and first track event to overheat) I decided to call it a day. Last week I changed the radiator fluid and supercharger intercooler fluid to Engine Ice and it seems to have brought daily driving temps down 20-25 degrees. How that will translate to the track, I'm not sure yet but I suspect that will only delay overheating.

My most recent oil analysis (see below) shows increased aluminum and iron contents, possibly suggesting piston scuffing from what I would assume to be result of either oil thinning or slight starvation (no dry sump on this car). This past oil analysis was conducted last week, I have since changed to Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30. At the suggestion of one of the engine builders I know who is also an avid track enthusiast he told me to blend the 5w-30 with maybe 1 qt of heavier oil. In this case it looks like my only option would be Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w-40. The ZL1 holds 8 qts of oil, so I'm thinking 7 qts 5w-30 and 1 qt 0w-40, but I'm not really sure. I contacted Pennzoil confirming that blending the oil would be OK without any adverse serious affects. Still waiting on their response. I haven't blended yet, so right now it is pure 5w-30.

The main reason I haven't gone to a really heavy oil such as a 15w-50 is due to the fact that this isn't a dedicated track car. While it isn't my daily either, I still drive it on the weekends and to various car meets. I've had the car for three years (almost to the day) and I'm just about to tick 17k miles. But maybe it would make sense to go to a heavier oil, I just know GM suggests that if you go to a heavy oil for road course applications you need to change it back out to 5w-30 when you're done and I rather not change the oil after a single road course event if possible.

What say you?

The oil analysis below has three different samples/logs. Each with increasing mileage and number of track events. The first sample was done with only 1,000 miles on the sample and 1 track event this was Mobil 1 5w-30 and obviously it came back completely fine. The second sample was with 2,730 miles on the oil and two track events plus one autocross event. Oil still appeared to be OK. Third (most recent) sample is with 5,029 miles on the oil, 4 track events plus two autocross events. Both the second and third sample were with Pennzoil Platinum 10w-30.

 

[ExMachina]

Mobil1 0w-40 is the answer here, although I think using Pennz Ultra 0w-40 is about as good. Actually any 0w-40 like Amsoil, Castrol, etc. that has the Mercedes 229.5 rating. (Pennz Ultra 0w-40 doesn't have 229.5, but its the SRT and Penske-Indycar oil anyway, so should be great enough too.)

Any 229.5 oil has gone through testing he-11 to get that rating. Its the top spec for an oil that works in your car.

And, I know M1 0w-40 and Castrol Edge 0w-40 is routinely used at the 24 Hr Nurburgring races (maybe Lemans too) and the M1 0w-40 has been seen used in Indycars.

 

[ExMachina]

Nice write-up on the overheating issues. Certainly more radiator is needed, adding an oil cooler mod maybe.

If you search for Amazon.com 0w-40, notice the M1 0w-40 is a bargain in the 5-quart jug, similar to what walmart sells it for. This is the bargain for a great racing-worthy oil with a full additive package (moly-boron-zddp anti-wear, friction modified).

Blending: Only problem is that it MAY actually reduce the performance, hard to know, since, for example, M1 0w-40 is used straight in Nissan GT-R, Porsche GT3, Mercedes AMG, and meets every known high-spec on the planet for gasoline engines, we just don't know if mixing it with something else would blow that. ... That said, mixing is done a lot, and chances are you will see no problem mixing a bit.

Another option is to mix-blend in 1 quart of M1 Racing Oil 0w-50 or 0w-30. I know with the caveats about mixing this seems weird, but those oils have high levels of Moly and ZDDP (at least I know the 0w-30 kind does), along with some detergents, so it should be fine to order a bottle on Amazon and mix it in. One bottle should do it.

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Nice write-up on the overheating issues. Certainly more radiator is needed, adding an oil cooler mod maybe.

If you search for Amazon.com 0w-40, notice the M1 0w-40 is a bargain in the 5-quart jug, similar to what walmart sells it for. This is the bargain for a great racing-worthy oil with a full additive package (moly-boron-zddp anti-wear, friction modified).


Thank. The ZL1 actually comes with an engine oil cooler (and trans and diff). However the OEM engine oil cooler isn't nearly as effective as an aftermarket one. So I'm thinking of making a change to an aftermarket more efficient one.

By going to a 0w oil and given the fact that I'm in Texas (and it's summer) I'm concerned that the oil may be too thin on cold/initial starts.

 

[bigt61]

M1 15W-50 - that's what I used in my dedicated GT1/Trans-Am road race cars. And my big block Suburban tow vehicle. It started fine in the winter, although it was garaged. Just an extra minute warm up for street use and you'll be fine. If you cut back on your track time, the 0W-40 should be OK.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro
By going to a 0w oil and given the fact that I'm in Texas (and it's summer) I'm concerned that the oil may be too thin on cold/initial starts.


That "0w" rating it earned only means there are PAO synthetic base oils in there and pour-point depressants, and it really never gets too thin. It really acts more like a 40 synthetic. Very tough oil, 229.5 and years of racing experience establish that.

I added some more discussion to my post above too.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro


What say you?




Nice car and good description of your usage. Here are my 2 cents worth on what I would likely do if it were mine:

First, your oil temps and usage are too far out there for a 30 grade oil in my opinion. 300F makes your 30 grade very thin, and is pretty much approaching HTHS test temperature. But I'm sure the oil within your bearings will be hotter on exit than the 300F bulk oil temp measurement.

With that being said, I would firstly switch to a thicker oil. Any 40 grade or even 50 grade would be good, and will still be fine for your daily / weekend driving if you choose something reasonable. I would stick with any European style 0W40, 5W40, with manufacturer approvals such as MB 229.5 / Porsche A40. You may even go straight up to 5W50 -- like M1 5W50, which is MB 229.3 approved, and was (is???) Porsche A40 approved. Any of these oils will stand up better to your track use while still allowing daily driving duties - no need to change it out regardless of what GM might say about it - they will do absolutely no harm in Texas driving.

Secondly, I'd seriously consider adding a decent sized oil-to-air cooler (in addition to any oil to coolant heat exchanger that the car may already have). This will help remove some of the thermal loading that could be contributing to your overheating, and help the oil reduce engine temps (by being kept cooler itself). Check around, there may already be pre-made kits for your car, but if not, it's easy enough to piece something together. Make sure the oil hoses you choose are of very high quality and properly routed / protected to give you reliable and trouble-free service.

Thirdly, you may need a radiator upgrade to fully prevent overheating, and to keep temps controlled under heavy racing loads. I'm not sure what's available for your car, but maybe worth a look.

Other than that, enjoy your ride and it's great to see that you're taking an interest in keeping it protected considering the tracking that you're putting it through.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: bigt61
M1 15W-50 - that's what I used in my dedicated GT1/Trans-Am road race cars. And my big block Suburban tow vehicle. It started fine in the winter, although it was garaged. Just an extra minute warm up for street use and you'll be fine. If you cut back on your track time, the 0W-40 should be OK.


I don't see the endurance racer cutting back on their track time with the 0w-40. Nor do Indy500 Penske cars who use it too. Example, a while back Mr. Hillary reported form Nurburgring:

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

I am in Nurburg is Germany - at the Nurburgring. The 38th annual 24hr race is underway. some things that may be of interest

1 - Mobil1 0W-40 is the oil used by Porsche in their race cars - including the new Hybrid! It is an "off the shelf" version! This was confirmed by the Engineers from Weissach when I was in the Pits!

2 - A Daimler AG Protoype Engineer (Unterturkheim now at Sindelfingen) who is staying here with me (and a Mercedes Team complement) confirmed the fact that using the correct viscosity is the answer

3 - Castrol's EDGE RS 10W-60 (SL/CF) is quite popular with some Teams (VW-Audi privateers). Some Teams use a SAE30 variant and some use 15W-50 - synthetics rule!!

 

[dave123]

Larger cooler and I'd be running Redline.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97

Secondly, I'd seriously consider adding a decent sized oil-to-air cooler (in addition to any oil to coolant heat exchanger that the car may already have).


Stock 2007 BMW sixes like mine use oil-coolant metal heat exchangers. I don't think the GM V8s use it. Is it on that engine from the factory?

For the 2014 Camaro ZL1 (chevy website), they do say it already has a coolant-oil exchanger, but what about the 2013 iron?
"Unlike many of its competitors, ZL1 comes fully equipped with factory-integrated auxiliary fluid coolers that would otherwise cost thousands of dollars to install, including a liquid-to-liquid engine cooler typically found on high-endsports cars. "

 

[userfriendly]

I've been using 5W40 and 15W40 in a 2013 5.3
with good uoa results.

What would your thoughts be on a full synthetic 10W40?

M1 high mileage 10W40 is one. http://mobiloil.com

 

[Garak]

Basically, I'd want something with a little extra HTHS, and I'm guessing that with the modifications, you're not terribly worried about using a dexos1 5w-30. Several good options have been listed, and there are others, too.

 

[440Magnum]

My biggest concern with what you posted is that you got into a coolant over-temp situation. That's indicative of just flat-out not enough cooling capacity. The best oil in the world won't help that- so you need to make sure the coolers (oil, coolant) can shed enough heat to keep everything in the green for a whole session.

As for oil, I agree with those who suggest a 0w40, like Mobil 1. It has a great reputation in hard usage, and its close enough to the factory specified 5w30 that its not going to cause any issues. I saw your concern about it being a 0wXX- don't worry about that. I always tell people that to really understand a multi-grade oil they need to think exactly backwards from what is intuitive. Think of the oil's thickness AT OPERATING TEMPERATURE (say 230-250F), and that's what the number after the "w" is talking about. At full engine temp, M1 0w40 is a 40-weight oil, just like a 10w40 or a 15w40 would be. Now think what happens as the engine cools down- that's what the number before the "w" tells you. A 15w40 and a 0w40 are the same thickness when hot, but the 0w40 doesn't thicken as much when it cools down, so it flows better and is a better lubricant when you first start the engine up. Its already more like it will be when its hot.

The nice thing about modern synthetic multi-grades is that they can get that wide rating spread and more nearly constant thickness without a lot of additives like older oils use.

Given how hard you obviously use this car, it might also be worth looking at some of the more expensive "boutique" oils that tolerate high temperatures well in the 30- and 40-weight range. Redline comes to mind because of their more heavily ester-based base oil, but quite honestly Mobil 1 is comparable to most of the other boutique blends in 0w40. I wouldn't necessarily make the same claim about Mobil 1 10w30 and 5w30, or Pennzoil Ultra 10w30 and 5w30, though. M1 0w40 seems to be a real standout in the "off the shelf" product range. Pennzoil's closest (IMO) would be their Euro 5w40. I'm ambivalent about their 0w40 (even though it was designed specifically for one of my vehicles) because it is a bit lower on some of the old-school classic anti-wear additives than M1.

PS- its also possible that 10w30 is a really bad choice here, but its hard to say since most big oil suppliers won't go into a lot of detail about their chemistry. Reading the tea leaves (oil analyses and MSDS's) does hint that some makers actually use lower quality base stock oils in 10w30 since they don't need the high inherent viscosity index, and can hit the 10w30 spec with a poorer base stock and a modest dose of VI improvers (non-lubricating polymers that coil and uncoil with temperature changes to regulate the thickness of the fluid). That approach results in an oil that is more prone to viscosity breakdown under high stress than an oil with a higher quality base stock and fewer VI improvers. I'm not sure that's the case with PP 10w30, but I have just developed a general skepticism toward 10wXX grades anymore. Much more R&D is has been poured into 0wXX and 5wXX oils over the past 20 years, and 10w30 in particular is sorta along for the ride since no manufacturers spec it anymore.

 

[440Magnum]

PS- forgot to say "welcome" from another Texan and American muscle driver!

Hopefully SteveSRT8 will run across this thread and comment- he's tracked his 6.1 Hemi with M1 0w40 in south Florida and seen 300F oil temps and can give his experiences. I think he's getting close to (or maybe over?) 100k miles on that engine now, too.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
M1 0w40 seems to be a real standout in the "off the shelf" product range. Pennzoil's closest (IMO) would be their Euro 5w40. I'm ambivalent about their 0w40 (even though it was designed specifically for one of my vehicles) because it is a bit lower on some of the old-school classic anti-wear additives than M1.


Pennz 0w-40 has an advantage in that its got a lot of moly (241 ppm vs. 75 ppm for M1 0w-40). That load of moly means it begins to have good AW properties, while M1's low moly is mostly just for lower friction. Nothing wrong with either oil's package in total. Brains at both companies, who would have guessed it?

Oils to use with complete confidence:
M1 0w-40, Pennz 0w-40, Rotella T6 5w-40, Amsoil EFO 0w-40, Castrol Edge 0w-40

 

[turtlevette]

When you asked a year ago the consensuses was m1 0w-40. Now that you know its overheating, a 50 or 60wt oil seems prudent. I don't see much downside since you are in Houston.

I just re read. The coolant temp was maxed out? The heads could be trying to warp. I've noticed with aluminum heads on a sb1, one overheat may not cause a head gasket breech but it will weaken things. The second overheat will do it in.

How are the brakes holding up?

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
When you asked a year ago the consensuses was m1 0w-40. Now that you know its overheating, a 50 or 60wt oil seems prudent. I don't see much downside since you are in Houston.


Could go extremely heavy oil, yes, yet if one is truly trying to race, you don't want any unneeded high viscosity because it reduces power slightly from viscous drag friction. Thats why a lot of pros hold the line at 0w-40, no higher. Durability vs. max power to the wheels you know.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
When you asked a year ago the consensuses was m1 0w-40. Now that you know its overheating, a 50 or 60wt oil seems prudent. I don't see much downside since you are in Houston.


Could go extremely heavy oil, yes, yet if one is truly trying to race, you don't want any unneeded high viscosity because it reduces power slightly from viscous drag friction. Thats why a lot of pros hold the line at 0w-40, no higher. Durability vs. max power to the wheels you know.


HPDE isn't a race. The first priority is to protect that very expensive engine rather than trying to gain a fraction of a percent.

The coolant temp maxing out is very worrysome. The water temp gauge normally goes to 300deg which is enough to make a head move or warp.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I agree with using a 50 weight as well. GM specs M1 15W50 for a tracked Corvette.

 

[BaylorCamaro]

I appreciate all of the time everyone is taking to post in here with suggestions and actually have detailed posts explaining their suggestions. Very useful! I'm a car guy, not an oil guy so I'm very open to learning as much as possible in regards to protecting my engine from the torture I put it through on the track.

Originally Posted By: ExMachina


Stock 2007 BMW sixes like mine use oil-coolant metal heat exchangers. I don't think the GM V8s use it. Is it on that engine from the factory?

For the 2014 Camaro ZL1 (chevy website), they do say it already has a coolant-oil exchanger, but what about the 2013 iron?
"Unlike many of its competitors, ZL1 comes fully equipped with factory-integrated auxiliary fluid coolers that would otherwise cost thousands of dollars to install, including a liquid-to-liquid engine cooler typically found on high-endsports cars. "


2012-2015 ZL1's are all exactly the same mechanically, 2014+ just had an appearance update. But all the coolers are the same.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
My biggest concern with what you posted is that you got into a coolant over-temp situation. That's indicative of just flat-out not enough cooling capacity. The best oil in the world won't help that- so you need to make sure the coolers (oil, coolant) can shed enough heat to keep everything in the green for a whole session.


Agreed. I am eager to see what effect changing the coolant to Engine Ice and thermostat out will have.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
PS- forgot to say "welcome" from another Texan and American muscle driver!


Thanks! What part of Texas? Ever do any tracking/HPDE events?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

I just re read. The coolant temp was maxed out? The heads could be trying to warp. I've noticed with aluminum heads on a sb1, one overheat may not cause a head gasket breech but it will weaken things. The second overheat will do it in.

How are the brakes holding up?


Well it had it nearly pegged. From what I've read, if/when the engine gets too hot it will put itself into a limp mode to prevent damage, how effective is this? I'm not sure. The overheat actually occurred two track events ago. I forgot I've had another track event since then, different track and didn't run my ZL1 as hard but didn't have any overheating issues that time.

As for brakes, they're not an issue which is surprising on a two ton car going around a track. I'm running the OEM pads, OEM 2 piece rotors, DOT 4 brake fluid and stainless steel lines. I had an instructor ride with me at an event 8 months ago and after a session he asked me what upgrades I had done and when I didn't mention anything about brakes he could barley believe that the OEM brake set up was so good on the ZL1

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

HPDE isn't a race. The first priority is to protect that very expensive engine rather than trying to gain a fraction of a percent.


Exactly. I want to make sure I do whatever is necessary to protect the engine.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

The coolant temp maxing out is very worrysome. The water temp gauge normally goes to 300deg which is enough to make a head move or warp.


Yes I agree. I've never had this issue until two events ago. Granted that is by far the hardest the car has been pushed and it just so happened that it was probably the hottest weather it was pushed in too. I will keep a close eye on temps at the next track event now that I've changed out the thermostat and gone to different coolant for both the engine and supercharger.

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I agree with using a 50 weight as well. GM specs M1 15W50 for a tracked Corvette.


That's also what GM says to use on the Z/28. However (to my knowledge) they don't say anything in regards to the ZL1. Not sure if it's because of the blower or not but even then you would think with having a blower and generating extra heat you would want the thicker oil.