Jay works for fram and he has a job to do and in my opinion he is doing it well.. Enough said.
Possible Fram Ultra issue
- Thread starter Trav
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used oil i have been in the engine business all my life and it could be...lol
I have a handful of ultras, have not used one yet. For 92 marine 4.3 800 hrs WFO, 03 cad 4.6 124K, 01 Tacoma 3.4 138K, 99 sable 3.0 124K, 07 WRX 2.5T 55K, 08 350Z 44K, 14 Z71 5.3 40K and 02 502 ramjet 30K (I know a used car lot). Now I will be listening close for anything out of the normal. All had been running Pureone with no issues most of their life with a few OCOD, wix and ST in the mix and no torn PL filters to date. In fact no engine trouble at all. Why change? because the purone says change at 3K. I like to go 5-6K so I figured try Ultra as they cost the same from amazon. I also like the way they are constructed. I run 5-30 full syn (whatever is on special)in all except 10-30 in the 502 and 15-40 in the 4.3. SO knocking on wood and hopefully not in the engine as I would like to hope I found my go to Ultra filter.
If this was my tick, I would measure gasket OD, ID, thickness and deck height from the oil holes to the top of the filter and the height of the top of the threads in relation to the top of the filter on both to see if something in the fit up is screwing with the internal BP. But that's just me.,
I have read many times that the Ultra flows better. Maybe. But the question: how much better? If it has the surface area 3 times less than the paper filter does than it needs to flow 3 times better. I am using the Ultra right now in one of my cars with a small engine but I am sceptical about it to use in a Subaru. I just don't believe in the flow capabilities of this filter.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
I have read many times that the Ultra flows better. Maybe. But the question: how much better? If it has the surface area 3 times less than the paper filter does than it needs to flow 3 times better. I am using the Ultra right now in one of my cars with a small engine but I am sceptical about it to use in a Subaru. I just don't believe in the flow capabilities of this filter.
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
I have read many times that the Ultra flows better. Maybe. But the question: how much better? If it has the surface area 3 times less than the paper filter does than it needs to flow 3 times better. I am using the Ultra right now in one of my cars with a small engine but I am sceptical about it to use in a Subaru. I just don't believe in the flow capabilities of this filter.
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
Except, as explained in this thread, the ADBV on this engine is in the block; the oil filter itself has none.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
Except, as explained in this thread, the ADBV on this engine is in the block; the oil filter itself has none.
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
Except, as explained in this thread, the ADBV on this engine is in the block; the oil filter itself has none.
The "bypass" is block mounted (not filter integral). The ADBV is spec and visible (silicone) in both the FU and the Napa Gold.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That leaves the adbv as a possible culprit. And as great as the FU is thoroughly promoted on this board, it is possible that it was compromised in some fashion. Perhaps that's too much heresy for some to read, but it is possible.
Yep, after re-reading a bit it sounded like the ticking was only after a cold start, so most likely the ADBV was leaking.
Next time give the new filter the "ADBV Blow Test" before installing.
Except, as explained in this thread, the ADBV on this engine is in the block; the oil filter itself has none.
The "bypass" is block mounted (not filter integral). The ADBV is spec and visible (silicone) in both the FU and the Napa Gold.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
What do you mean we can't compare the flow? Everything we need to know is a delta P across one filter and the other filter. I really don't care how the oil flows inside the filter and inside the media. I only care how easily it flows (with minimal delta P). Also I know that you always like to refer that a positive displacement pump supplies the same amount of oil regardless of the back pressure. That would be true if you didn't have any losses (internal leakages) in the pump. In fact the higher the backpressure the higher the loss and the lower the pressure at the bearings and the valve hydraulic lifters. And when the oil is cold the pump bypass valve opens letting the oil back to the sump. The pump is not pumping if the valve is open. This is what happened to the topic starter. You cannot convince me that it is not the filter's fault without the delta P numbers.
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
What do you mean we can't compare the flow? Everything we need to know is a delta P across one filter and the other filter. I really don't care how the oil flows inside the filter and inside the media. I only care how easily it flows (with minimal delta P). Also I know that you always like to refer that a positive displacement pump supplies the same amount of oil regardless of the back pressure. That would be true if you didn't have any losses (internal leakages) in the pump. In fact the higher the backpressure the higher the loss and the lower the pressure at the bearings and the valve hydraulic lifters. And when the oil is cold the pump bypass valve opens letting the oil back to the sump. The pump is not pumping if the valve is open. This is what happened to the topic starter. You cannot convince me that it is not the filter's fault without the delta P numbers.
He said you can't directly compare flow area. Comparing flow can be done. I don't quite agree with the two dimensional argument, but that's just me being mathematically pedantic, but the point is still valid that unless to samples of media are the same material, comparing surface area has limited value.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
What do you mean we can't compare the flow? Everything we need to know is a delta P across one filter and the other filter. I really don't care how the oil flows inside the filter and inside the media. I only care how easily it flows (with minimal delta P).
As Garak already mentioned ... I said flow area. Full synthetic media flows more volume per area than cellulose.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Also I know that you always like to refer that a positive displacement pump supplies the same amount of oil regardless of the back pressure. That would be true if you didn't have any losses (internal leakages) in the pump. In fact the higher the backpressure the higher the loss and the lower the pressure at the bearings and the valve hydraulic lifters.
Only time an oil pump would be effected by the flow restrictiveness of an oil filter in terms of pump internal leakage is if the oil pump was basically shot and worn out. You do realize than in a typical oiling system the engine itself is 15 times more flow restrictive than an oil filter. Meaning typically an engine will produce about 75 PSI of back pressure (delta-p) while the oil filter will produce about 5 PSI of back pressure (delta-p).
Even if the oil filter was completely clogged and provided say 12 PSI of back pressure (it's bypass valve opening pressure), an oil pump in good shape should be able to still provide nearly the same volume per engine RPM curve.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
And when the oil is cold the pump bypass valve opens letting the oil back to the sump. The pump is not pumping if the valve is open.
Well, not exactly ... because when the oil pump goes into pressure relief it's only pumping the excess oil back to the sump. In fact, then the oil pump is in pressure relief mode, it's going to be supplying the maximum oil pressure possible to the resistive circuit attached to it's outlet side. That means for whatever the viscosity of the oil is at the time, that's the maximum volume that can be shoved through the resistive flow circuit. The circuit can't take any more volume, so the pump pressure shoots up and the pump has to shunt the excess volume back to the sump. Take the pressure relief valve out of the system and a PD pump in good condition would shoot the supply pressure up to over 300 PSI and probably blow the filter's can apart.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
This is what happened to the topic starter. You cannot convince me that it is not the filter's fault without the delta P numbers.
I think what happened in the OP's case is the ADBV was leaking while the engine was off, making the engine tick on start-up. Unless I missed it, he never said the engine was ticking all the time, only upon cold start-up. Some engines are very sensitive to the ADBV leaking and the oil galleries draining out. Personally, I've never had an engine like this ... not even after an oil change where I let the oil drain from the engine all night with the filter removed.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You can't really compare "flow area" between a full synthetic and a cellulose media. Full synthetic filters 3 dimensionally while cellulose filters in 2 dimensionally. This is the reason full synthetic media flows better and still filters a high percentage of particles. Go do some research on the 'net about synthetic filter media and you'll see that kind of information.
What do you mean we can't compare the flow? Everything we need to know is a delta P across one filter and the other filter. I really don't care how the oil flows inside the filter and inside the media. I only care how easily it flows (with minimal delta P).
As Garak already mentioned ... I said flow area. Full synthetic media flows more volume per area than cellulose.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
Also I know that you always like to refer that a positive displacement pump supplies the same amount of oil regardless of the back pressure. That would be true if you didn't have any losses (internal leakages) in the pump. In fact the higher the backpressure the higher the loss and the lower the pressure at the bearings and the valve hydraulic lifters.
Only time an oil pump would be effected by the flow restrictiveness of an oil filter in terms of pump internal leakage is if the oil pump was basically shot and worn out. You do realize than in a typical oiling system the engine itself is 15 times more flow restrictive than an oil filter. Meaning typically an engine will produce about 75 PSI of back pressure (delta-p) while the oil filter will produce about 5 PSI of back pressure (delta-p).
Even if the oil filter was completely clogged and provided say 12 PSI of back pressure (it's bypass valve opening pressure), an oil pump in good shape should be able to still provide nearly the same volume per engine RPM curve.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
And when the oil is cold the pump bypass valve opens letting the oil back to the sump. The pump is not pumping if the valve is open.
Well, not exactly ... because when the oil pump goes into pressure relief it's only pumping the excess oil back to the sump. In fact, then the oil pump is in pressure relief mode, it's going to be supplying the maximum oil pressure possible to the resistive circuit attached to it's outlet side. That means for whatever the viscosity of the oil is at the time, that's the maximum volume that can be shoved through the resistive flow circuit. The circuit can't take any more volume, so the pump pressure shoots up and the pump has to shunt the excess volume back to the sump. Take the pressure relief valve out of the system and a PD pump in good condition would shoot the supply pressure up to over 300 PSI and probably blow the filter's can apart.
Originally Posted By: Ded Mazai
This is what happened to the topic starter. You cannot convince me that it is not the filter's fault without the delta P numbers.
I think what happened in the OP's case is the ADBV was leaking while the engine was off, making the engine tick on start-up. Unless I missed it, he never said the engine was ticking all the time, only upon cold start-up. Some engines are very sensitive to the ADBV leaking and the oil galleries draining out. Personally, I've never had an engine like this ... not even after an oil change where I let the oil drain from the engine all night with the filter removed.
The FRAM online catalog lists only the XG3593A for the S2000.
2000 HONDA S2000 4-2.0L F/inj. (16V) DOHC F20C1 V-Tec
Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.
Part Type Part Note
ULTRA/XTENDED GUARD PREMIUM LUBE FILTER XG3593A
TOUGHGUARD TG3593A
HIGHMILEAGE HM3593A
EXTRAGUARD PH3593A
2000 HONDA S2000 4-2.0L F/inj. (16V) DOHC F20C1 V-Tec
Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.
Part Type Part Note
ULTRA/XTENDED GUARD PREMIUM LUBE FILTER XG3593A
TOUGHGUARD TG3593A
HIGHMILEAGE HM3593A
EXTRAGUARD PH3593A
Found mine under the label, looks like another three year old filter I bought in March or so. A21843 Oh well at least it is not a fake. You can't see it under the label, but I detected a faint outline of part of one character:
So this thread ends with doubt cast on the Ultra's flow, but no facts that are logical to back it up. Interesting.
So this thread ends with doubt cast on the Ultra's flow, but no facts that are logical to back it up. Interesting.
As to the doubt on the Ultra's capability to flow I have no doubt it is a high flow filter based on data provided by Motorking (all you have to do is email him and he will provide data). I guess the doubt is by the arm chair internet engineers with no data to actually backup their speculation.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
As to the doubt on the Ultra's capability to flow I have no doubt it is a high flow filter based on data provided by Motorking (all you have to do is email him and he will provide data). I guess the doubt is by the arm chair internet engineers with no data to actually backup their speculation.
Well, I guess we may all be convinced now. On the other hand, given Tig's experience with this filter it seemed a reasonable, though perhaps uninformed, question. If this forum is supposed to be a source of information and education, I don't know that heaping scorn on those posing this question is productive. But hey, if it floats your boat...
As to the doubt on the Ultra's capability to flow I have no doubt it is a high flow filter based on data provided by Motorking (all you have to do is email him and he will provide data). I guess the doubt is by the arm chair internet engineers with no data to actually backup their speculation.
Well, I guess we may all be convinced now. On the other hand, given Tig's experience with this filter it seemed a reasonable, though perhaps uninformed, question. If this forum is supposed to be a source of information and education, I don't know that heaping scorn on those posing this question is productive. But hey, if it floats your boat...
False rumors get started this way. It goes out all over, time passes, and pretty soon people are believing things not true. Education isn't jumping to conclusions. I don't care about Fram one way or the other, I like the Denso oil filters the best so far from my own inspection, but have learned facts about Purolator that saved possible engine damage.
Originally Posted By: Motorking
The FRAM online catalog lists only the XG3593A for the S2000.
2000 HONDA S2000 4-2.0L F/inj. (16V) DOHC F20C1 V-Tec
Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.
Part Type Part Note
ULTRA/XTENDED GUARD PREMIUM LUBE FILTER XG3593A
TOUGHGUARD TG3593A
HIGHMILEAGE HM3593A
EXTRAGUARD PH3593A
For model years 2000-2001 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog lists 3593A filters, this is correct cross reference to Honda 15400-PCX-004.
For model years 2002-2003 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog lists 7317 filters. These model years have the same 2.0L engine F20C as 2000-2001.
For model years 2004-2009 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog list 6607 filters. These model years have 2.2L engine F22C but have the same OEM filter 15400-PCX-004.
All model years S2000 have the same OEM oil filter 15400-PCX-004. But Fram lists 3 different oil filters depends on model years. Which is very wrong.
If you do cross reference for 15400-PCX-004 you will get only Extra Guard PH6607, which is a junk oil filter not suitable for 8-9k RPM engines.
I stashed some XG3593A for my 2004 S2000 and some XG7317 for my daughter 2014 Accord. I do like Fram Ultra oil filter.
Fram online catalog and printed catalog at Pep Boys and other auto parts stores is totally wrong in recommending bad oil filters for some Honda vehicles.
The FRAM online catalog lists only the XG3593A for the S2000.
2000 HONDA S2000 4-2.0L F/inj. (16V) DOHC F20C1 V-Tec
Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.
Part Type Part Note
ULTRA/XTENDED GUARD PREMIUM LUBE FILTER XG3593A
TOUGHGUARD TG3593A
HIGHMILEAGE HM3593A
EXTRAGUARD PH3593A
For model years 2000-2001 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog lists 3593A filters, this is correct cross reference to Honda 15400-PCX-004.
For model years 2002-2003 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog lists 7317 filters. These model years have the same 2.0L engine F20C as 2000-2001.
For model years 2004-2009 Honda S2000 Fram online catalog list 6607 filters. These model years have 2.2L engine F22C but have the same OEM filter 15400-PCX-004.
All model years S2000 have the same OEM oil filter 15400-PCX-004. But Fram lists 3 different oil filters depends on model years. Which is very wrong.
If you do cross reference for 15400-PCX-004 you will get only Extra Guard PH6607, which is a junk oil filter not suitable for 8-9k RPM engines.
I stashed some XG3593A for my 2004 S2000 and some XG7317 for my daughter 2014 Accord. I do like Fram Ultra oil filter.
Fram online catalog and printed catalog at Pep Boys and other auto parts stores is totally wrong in recommending bad oil filters for some Honda vehicles.
Just to update. The noise never came back. At the end of this OCI i will try another Ultra with this oil still in the system to see if the noise returns. If not it will stay on.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Just to update. The noise never came back. At the end of this OCI i will try another Ultra with this oil still in the system to see if the noise returns. If not it will stay on.
Did you mail the filter back to Fram for analysis?
Just to update. The noise never came back. At the end of this OCI i will try another Ultra with this oil still in the system to see if the noise returns. If not it will stay on.
Did you mail the filter back to Fram for analysis?
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