HOA orders resident to take down US Flag
- Thread starter KD0AXS
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Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Is it really that hard for her to move the flag inside her porch where the HOA allows it???
She will likely pay a lot of money for the HOA's attorney plus daily fines. All because she wants to prove she's "right", which she is wrong. She won't win this. Exterior walls of the condo aren't owned by the resident.
She will likely pay a lot of money for the HOA's attorney plus daily fines. All because she wants to prove she's "right", which she is wrong. She won't win this. Exterior walls of the condo aren't owned by the resident.
Originally Posted By: xfactor9
She will likely pay a lot of money for the HOA's attorney plus daily fines. All because she wants to prove she's "right", which she is wrong. She won't win this. Exterior walls of the condo aren't owned by the resident.
My Internet law degree tells me otherwise. While it's true that the resident doesn't own the exterior walls, ownership isn't the issue. The issue is whether the flag is placed in a common area or an area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
It took me a little digging, but this is what I found in Minnesota Statute 515A.2-102, Subdivision 4, which is part of the Minnesota Uniform Condominium Act.
Quote:
All exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit, but located outside the unit's boundaries, are limited common elements allocated exclusively to that unit.
Therefore the exterior of her porch is considered by law to be an exclusive use area, and her right to display the flag in that area is protected by both State and Federal law.
She will likely pay a lot of money for the HOA's attorney plus daily fines. All because she wants to prove she's "right", which she is wrong. She won't win this. Exterior walls of the condo aren't owned by the resident.
My Internet law degree tells me otherwise. While it's true that the resident doesn't own the exterior walls, ownership isn't the issue. The issue is whether the flag is placed in a common area or an area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
It took me a little digging, but this is what I found in Minnesota Statute 515A.2-102, Subdivision 4, which is part of the Minnesota Uniform Condominium Act.
Quote:
All exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit, but located outside the unit's boundaries, are limited common elements allocated exclusively to that unit.
Therefore the exterior of her porch is considered by law to be an exclusive use area, and her right to display the flag in that area is protected by both State and Federal law.
Please explain how:
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Please explain how:
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
Easy enough.
Quote:
"Limited common element" means a portion of the common elements allocated by the declaration or by operation of section 515A.2-102(2) or (4) for the exclusive use of one or more but fewer than all of the units.
Nobody is saying the resident can do whatever they want,because they can't. However, the law says that the HOA may not prohibit a resident from displaying the flag there.
Please explain how:
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
Easy enough.
Quote:
"Limited common element" means a portion of the common elements allocated by the declaration or by operation of section 515A.2-102(2) or (4) for the exclusive use of one or more but fewer than all of the units.
Nobody is saying the resident can do whatever they want,because they can't. However, the law says that the HOA may not prohibit a resident from displaying the flag there.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Please explain how:
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
Easy enough.
Quote:
"Limited common element" means a portion of the common elements allocated by the declaration or by operation of section 515A.2-102(2) or (4) for the exclusive use of one or more but fewer than all of the units.
Nobody is saying the resident can do whatever they want,because they can't. However, the law says that the HOA may not prohibit a resident from displaying the flag there.
Right, but the flag pole and flag are mounted on the outside of the deck, outside of the area designated for her exclusive use.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Please explain how:
limited common elements allocated(distributed/assigned) exclusively to that unit
translates to
area that's reserved for exclusive use of the resident.
Exclusively allocated does not equal exclusive use
Exclusively allocated just means those "exterior doors and windows and any shutters, awnings, window boxes, doorsteps, stoops, porches, balconies, patios, or other fixtures designed to serve a single unit" are uniquely assigned or associated with that unit. The definition does NOT say the owner can use that COMMON AREA any way they choose. It is still a common area subject to HOA rules.
Easy enough.
Quote:
"Limited common element" means a portion of the common elements allocated by the declaration or by operation of section 515A.2-102(2) or (4) for the exclusive use of one or more but fewer than all of the units.
Nobody is saying the resident can do whatever they want,because they can't. However, the law says that the HOA may not prohibit a resident from displaying the flag there.
Right, but the flag pole and flag are mounted on the outside of the deck, outside of the area designated for her exclusive use.
The law gives the HOA the right to fly the flag as it pleases in common ownership areas. Not individual owners, even as stated under MN law that "allocates" limited common ownership items. The law still does not give sole, full, and complete ownership. Without complete ownership, the law for the ability to fly the flag does not apply.
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
She is not being denied the right to display the flag. She is not allowed to fly it in an area she has no exclusive use of. She can freely fly it on her own exclusive property as defined the the HOA
It is like thinking someone pontificating during a movie and having the usher throw them out is denying that person freedom of speech.
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
She is not being denied the right to display the flag. She is not allowed to fly it in an area she has no exclusive use of. She can freely fly it on her own exclusive property as defined the the HOA
It is like thinking someone pontificating during a movie and having the usher throw them out is denying that person freedom of speech.
Last edited:
Lady will lose if this goes to court.
I understand her position, but she is violating HOA rules.
I understand her position, but she is violating HOA rules.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
for both her sons in the military.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
No, No...and NO. It's not an issue involving the flag or someones right to fly it...it's an issue involving the CC&Rs and by-laws that has NOTHING to do with Federal law as she doesn't own the property where the flag is being flown. She agreed to this when she signed the ownership papers as to defined common areas. It's akin to me mounting a 60 foot by 40 foot American flag on a 20 foot pole that I put in front of your walkway. After all, Federal law says that everyone has the right to fly the flag right??...I'll just put it on your property so my begonias can get more sun. While I sympathize with this woman, it's really not that different.
HOAs have legally binding rules involving common areas and they need to be respected or every d-bag in existence could be flying monster truck flags and putting WWF posters in their windows. Again, NOT a Federal law issue. She doesn't own the property where the flag is placed by her agreement in signing the CC&Rs to live there. NOT a Federal Law issue. The HOA has property rights which trump her ability to fly a flag on part of the property that she doesn't own and she agreed to as being "common area" by signing ownership papers. Given the reality of the above, it's really not a patriotic issue nor is it a flag issue...it's a media issue.
Personally, I would put much more effort in addressing the disrespectful misuse of the flag than I would in screaming about someone who doesn't even own the property where it's being flown. Unfortunately, that's too cerebral for the media infotainers who need a human interest soundbite story to close their newscast.
Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Bottom line.... You must follow the HOA rules.
Not if those rules are in direct conflict of federal law...HOA rules cannot override federal law...in other words, HOAs don't have the right to ban the display of the American flag...
It's a flag issue for the media outlets but it's a reality issue for everyone else. If the CC&Rs say that you don't do THAT then you don't do THAT and there generally aren't exceptions made...and there shouldn't be. Why have rules?? If the outer porch is deemed as a common area then it's a property rights issue for the HOA and not a flag issue for the homeowner. She's making modifications and flying the flag on what she agreed ( by signing ownership papers ) is someone elses property. It's not that hard to understand. Federal law doesn't apply...well, it does apply to lawyers and TV 10 Action News but they rarely represent reality.
Federal law applies everywhere in this country...like I said, an HOA cannot make rules that override federal law, and federal law states that EVERYONE has the right to display the American flag...
No, No...and NO. It's not an issue involving the flag or someones right to fly it...it's an issue involving the CC&Rs and by-laws that has NOTHING to do with Federal law as she doesn't own the property where the flag is being flown. She agreed to this when she signed the ownership papers as to defined common areas. It's akin to me mounting a 60 foot by 40 foot American flag on a 20 foot pole that I put in front of your walkway. After all, Federal law says that everyone has the right to fly the flag right??...I'll just put it on your property so my begonias can get more sun. While I sympathize with this woman, it's really not that different.
HOAs have legally binding rules involving common areas and they need to be respected or every d-bag in existence could be flying monster truck flags and putting WWF posters in their windows. Again, NOT a Federal law issue. She doesn't own the property where the flag is placed by her agreement in signing the CC&Rs to live there. NOT a Federal Law issue. The HOA has property rights which trump her ability to fly a flag on part of the property that she doesn't own and she agreed to as being "common area" by signing ownership papers. Given the reality of the above, it's really not a patriotic issue nor is it a flag issue...it's a media issue.
Personally, I would put much more effort in addressing the disrespectful misuse of the flag than I would in screaming about someone who doesn't even own the property where it's being flown. Unfortunately, that's too cerebral for the media infotainers who need a human interest soundbite story to close their newscast.
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