Electro-magnetic pulse

[turtlevette]

Sorry garak but 99% of what you posted is gibberish. Nice try doing searches and trying to cobble something together to fool the masses here.

While you were staying at the holiday inn,

I worked with engineers at Raytheon on this very subject as it applies to microprocessor based devices on a carrier.

 

[KrisZ]

I agree with turtlevette that the effects of an EMP attack are largely exaggerated.
Transformers and anything with a wound up length of wire, aka coils, are the most sensitive to the EMP because they already use the electromagnetic field. But even then, if you think of a coil pack for a spark plug, it steps up the voltage from 12V to few thousands volts and is heavily insulated. The EM signal would have to be extremely strong to short out the coils.

Other electronic components like resistors, microprocessors, transistors, diods, etc. maybe with the exception to the capacitors are not all too sensitive because the electro-magnetic field would have to be very strong to induce voltage/current hight enough to burn out the components. If that flow of electrons is not present, the electro-magnetic field itself cannot burn anything out.
And how do you induce voltage using an EM field? In a length of wire, wrapped around a piece of metal.

The whole notion that an EMP attack would "fry" all electronics is simply foolish.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I worked with engineers at Raytheon on this very subject as it applies to microprocessor based devices on a carrier.

And what did they tell you? Additionally, you still are dead wrong on the propagation of a N-EMP, and haven't corrected your inverse-square gaffe.

KrisZ: Yes, the coin pack, plug wires, and so forth are relatively safe. Any long cabling might have an issue, and alternators and ECMs would have sensitivity. A pulse can generate tens of thousands of volts per metre, fairly easily.

In actual testing, when such things were allowed, some things that were expected to suffer did not, and others that were expected to fare well actually didn't.

 

[Shannow]

Interesting read here

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

Amazing that it could cause auroral type phenomenon on the opposite side of the globe.

 

[Garak]

Nice link, Shannow. It's interesting how it also says the inverse square law doesn't apply. Fields and flux over a closed surface is completely different mathematics. And so much of what makes our lives (and technology) possible on this planet are dependent on its magnetic field. But, then again, neither you nor I have detonated a nuclear device in the ionosphere and then published a paper on it, so we're not qualified to speak about it.

In any event, without going off into politics, this is the risk that the United States faces from places like Iran and North Korea. They're not going to launch a single suicidal ICBM (if they had such a delivery system) against the U.S. The nut that did that would have nothing left to rule over. A N-EMP attack would be an act of war, but not quite so suicidal.

In most vehicles, I'd worry about the alternator and computer systems the most. Alternators are simply vulnerable due to the design and computer systems don't get to take a lot of extra current without having problems.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Interesting read here

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

Amazing that it could cause auroral type phenomenon on the opposite side of the globe.


Absolutely stunning. The effects would likely be disastrous. No electrical grid, tons of random failures in virtually anything electronic.

But we should all listen up, Turtle is "teaching"...

 

[Garak]

Yes, he's teaching, and we can learn wonders from him in math, physics, and engineering (not to mention every subfield within those), along with vehicle maintenance and how no one here knows anything about building an engine. Most impressively, he's only just begun.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I had an e-machines computer launch a capacitor like a little missle out one of the vent holes during a distant thunderstorm and "lightweight" power surge.

"They" just have to kill facebook, twitter, and instagram for a day and there'll be marauding hordes, even if the cars still work.

And my w123 300d will suddenly become more relevant.

Even if its alternator goes kablooey, it'll roll-start without electricity.


Unless you happen to have a grey market stick 300D, you're going to need a really long hill to get it to start. While the automatic in these will allow a towed start and the OM's of the 240Ds I've had actually told you how to do it, you have to be going pretty fast to get a start, and the diesel won't be especially happy about starting without the help of the glow plugs.
Still, if you could get one of these old dears to run, you'd have no need for any alternator output.

 

[Jetronic]

what about the stop valve?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Yes, he's teaching, and we can learn wonders from him in math, physics, and engineering (not to mention every subfield within those), along with vehicle maintenance and how no one here knows anything about building an engine. Most impressively, he's only just begun.


Nice to see that the dry wit of the mother country survives in the former colony to our north.
We've mostly lost it here.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
what about the stop valve?


With an old MB diesel, this is vacuum operated and there's also a mechanical emergency shutoff under the hood.
With an older MB diesel, it's fully mechanical. You just pull out a knob labeled "STOP" on the dash.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
what about the stop valve?


With an old MB diesel, this is vacuum operated and there's also a mechanical emergency shutoff under the hood.
With an older MB diesel, it's fully mechanical. You just pull out a knob labeled "STOP" on the dash.


Aaaah, the good old daze. Even a non-diesel had a manual choke. Get old enough and you had spark advance also, especially if crank started. The old cars may be very sought after...

 

[fdcg27]

Not that long ago.
I've seen W115 diesels with manual shutoff and a few cars had manual chokes as late as the 'seventies, like our old '76 Civic.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Interesting read here

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

Amazing that it could cause auroral type phenomenon on the opposite side of the globe.


You find the weirdest [censored]. On the internet you can always find some odd ball that supports your belief. That guy is not playing with a full deck.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Garak

In any event, without going off into politics, this is the risk that the United States faces from places like Iran and North Korea. They're not going to launch a single suicidal ICBM (if they had such a delivery system) against the U.S. The nut that did that would have nothing left to rule over. A N-EMP attack would be an act of war, but not quite so suicidal.


in future wars, USA is going to be attacked in the most vulnerable spot. massive hacker attacks will cripple networks and electricity sending the country back into the 19 century. furthermore, no one will know where those armies of hackers came from preventing any military retaliation. EMP attack is a child play in comparison.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Garak

In any event, without going off into politics, this is the risk that the United States faces from places like Iran and North Korea. They're not going to launch a single suicidal ICBM (if they had such a delivery system) against the U.S. The nut that did that would have nothing left to rule over. A N-EMP attack would be an act of war, but not quite so suicidal.


in future wars, USA is going to be attacked in the most vulnerable spot. massive hacker attacks will cripple networks and electricity sending the country back into the 19 century. furthermore, no one will know where those armies of hackers came from preventing any military retaliation. EMP attack is a child play in comparison.


You make a very good point, informed as we are that such attacks have already happened on a low level.
Cyber security isn't that difficult to achieve if we're willing to invest the money to get there, though.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

You make a very good point, informed as we are that such attacks have already happened on a low level.


yup, probing of weak spots.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You find the weirdest [censored]. On the internet you can always find some odd ball that supports your belief.


That's why I'm surprised that you rarely bring anything to the table to support your arguments but name calling and twisting your own and other's words around.

Unless there's really nothing out there supporting your position ?

Is it at that point of realisation that you throw out your twisted strawman polls ?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
EMP attack is a child play in comparison.

It is monumentally safer than trying to use a nuke directly. It's just another way to attack infrastructure. I'm not saying anyone would do this for certain. What I'm saying is that if a rogue country were to use a nuclear device, that's a safer way to use it. That doesn't preclude attacking the infrastructure in other ways, nor does it mean that's the best way to attack the infrastructure.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Unless there's really nothing out there supporting your position ?

Perhaps he can do some original research, then, and submit it for peer review. Unfortunately, original research in this domain is just about impossible, and since he doesn't like anyone having a bibliography, we should obviously take his word for it.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Interesting read here

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html

Amazing that it could cause auroral type phenomenon on the opposite side of the globe.


Absolutely stunning. The effects would likely be disastrous. No electrical grid, tons of random failures in virtually anything electronic.

But we should all listen up, Turtle is "teaching"...


Teaching engineering?
From a guy who puts piston rings in upside down.

Chugga chugga chooooo choooo

Engineer. Not on this planet.
Guy can't even spell zombie,in a world where spell check exists on every typing product.

Please.

I am entertained though.