What is the advantage over the other? Some very good oils have no moly at all but have read they use sodium to accomplish the same thing. One would think sodium would be a corrosive to the engine.
Comments?
Comments?
Sodium vs Moly?
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I prefer Moly but I like Valvoline oils which have basically ditched moly for sodium these days. I sometimes add MoS2, best of both then!
Whats better for overall wear protection?
Originally Posted By: oilchangeguy
One would think sodium would be a corrosive to the engine.
Not unless it's part of a seawater intrusion.
One would think sodium would be a corrosive to the engine.
Not unless it's part of a seawater intrusion.
Originally Posted By: Lubener
My doctor said to avoid sodium and stick with moly.
My doctor said holy moly cut down on the sodium son!
My doctor said to avoid sodium and stick with moly.
My doctor said holy moly cut down on the sodium son!
I talked to a Valvoline tech a while ago. He said they are using additives that do the job Moly does and aren't as costly. Nothing wrong with either additive
sodium and moly have different purposes within an oil. Sodium is more for TBN retention while moly is more for lubrication.
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Moly is an anti-wear additive, Sodium is more of a corrosion inhibitor.
The two really don't seem related
The two really don't seem related
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Originally Posted By: car51
I talked to a Valvoline tech a while ago. He said they are using additives that do the job Moly does and aren't as costly. Nothing wrong with either additive
Wonder if this means oil without moly is of an inferior quality,via leaving moly out to "cost cut"?
I talked to a Valvoline tech a while ago. He said they are using additives that do the job Moly does and aren't as costly. Nothing wrong with either additive
Wonder if this means oil without moly is of an inferior quality,via leaving moly out to "cost cut"?
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
Moly is an anti-wear additive, Sodium is more of a corrosion inhibitor.
The two really don't seem related
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Moly is an anti-wear additive, Sodium is more of a corrosion inhibitor.
The two really don't seem related
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
Moly is an anti-wear additive, Sodium is more of a corrosion inhibitor.
The two really don't seem related
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Hmm. And what for friction modifiers? How do you think, why they are added at all?
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
Moly is an anti-wear additive, Sodium is more of a corrosion inhibitor.
The two really don't seem related
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Hmm. And what for friction modifiers? How do you think, why they are added at all?
Just like Zinc is also included in an oil. Friction modifier. Different elements provide advantages over straight base oil. Read the 3 articles here on the site regarding moly and you will understand why it is beneficial.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/
Originally Posted By: timeau
Hmm. And what for friction modifiers? How do you think, why they are added at all?
They are added to improve fuel economy, at least when we're talking of normal passenger vehicles.
Hmm. And what for friction modifiers? How do you think, why they are added at all?
They are added to improve fuel economy, at least when we're talking of normal passenger vehicles.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Not quite. Depends on how much is in there:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC is now the most often used form of moly in motor oils and gear lubes, except for Manual Transmissions. MoDTC also acts as an anti-oxidant and is therefore classified as a Multi-functional additive.
At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three.
Some oils use a lot of moly, and looks like they are going for some AW properties at the higher concentrations, somewhere north of about 200 ppm, Redline, MGMO, Pennzoil 0w-40, etc.
Molybdenum is a friction modifier and has little to no effect on wear.
Not quite. Depends on how much is in there:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Molybdenum dithiocarbamate or MoDTC is now the most often used form of moly in motor oils and gear lubes, except for Manual Transmissions. MoDTC also acts as an anti-oxidant and is therefore classified as a Multi-functional additive.
At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three.
Some oils use a lot of moly, and looks like they are going for some AW properties at the higher concentrations, somewhere north of about 200 ppm, Redline, MGMO, Pennzoil 0w-40, etc.
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So an oil with FM's (car oil) has less friction than an oil with no FM's (motorcycle oil)? I've never quite understood FM's and their role in a lubricant. Would that mean that motorcycle oil would cause more wear in a car?
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
So an oil with FM's (car oil) has less friction than an oil with no FM's (motorcycle oil)? I've never quite understood FM's and their role in a lubricant. Would that mean that motorcycle oil would cause more wear in a car?
Its confusing because many additives are multi-function, AW, FM, depending on temperatures, pressures, chemistry. And remember friction comes in the form of viscous drag, a kind of friction. Some people think the only kind of friction is when metal contacts metal, and yet "friction" has a broader definition to include viscosity effects too.
In answer to your question, the motorcycle oil you speak of with no FM should still have the AW additives that car oil has, although FMs can help AWs reduce wear sometimes. See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729029/1
So an oil with FM's (car oil) has less friction than an oil with no FM's (motorcycle oil)? I've never quite understood FM's and their role in a lubricant. Would that mean that motorcycle oil would cause more wear in a car?
Its confusing because many additives are multi-function, AW, FM, depending on temperatures, pressures, chemistry. And remember friction comes in the form of viscous drag, a kind of friction. Some people think the only kind of friction is when metal contacts metal, and yet "friction" has a broader definition to include viscosity effects too.
In answer to your question, the motorcycle oil you speak of with no FM should still have the AW additives that car oil has, although FMs can help AWs reduce wear sometimes. See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729029/1
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
So an oil with FM's (car oil) has less friction than an oil with no FM's (motorcycle oil)? I've never quite understood FM's and their role in a lubricant. Would that mean that motorcycle oil would cause more wear in a car?
If you look at the stribeck curve
The long sloping are to the right is full fluid film lubrication, where the parts are separated by an "oil wedge"...the low point in the middle is the point of minimum friction, where the parts are just about to touch, then off to the left is the mixed and boundary friction which is characterised by partial contact, and partial fluid film...and high friction (and wear).
Friction modifiers form a soapy sort of layer, often using part of the parent metal itself, which shears off rather than taking chinks off...it lowers the steep parts on the left of the curve, and reduces wear that would otherwise occur.
By nature, they don't eliminate wear, but it's orders of magnitude less than non friction modified oils.
Typically, in passenger vehicles, it's only the thinner grades that use the stuff, 3.5HTHS 30s and upwards use lower amounts, if any.
Here's a paper
http://www.crodalubricants.com/download....9e-0157e039c5a9
Looking at the charts, please note that it's all the left side of the Stribeck curve...they all meet at the low point on the RHS of the Croda charts, as that's the "min friction point", and everything to the right is hydrodynamic, full film, and not where the FMs are active.
So an oil with FM's (car oil) has less friction than an oil with no FM's (motorcycle oil)? I've never quite understood FM's and their role in a lubricant. Would that mean that motorcycle oil would cause more wear in a car?
If you look at the stribeck curve
The long sloping are to the right is full fluid film lubrication, where the parts are separated by an "oil wedge"...the low point in the middle is the point of minimum friction, where the parts are just about to touch, then off to the left is the mixed and boundary friction which is characterised by partial contact, and partial fluid film...and high friction (and wear).
Friction modifiers form a soapy sort of layer, often using part of the parent metal itself, which shears off rather than taking chinks off...it lowers the steep parts on the left of the curve, and reduces wear that would otherwise occur.
By nature, they don't eliminate wear, but it's orders of magnitude less than non friction modified oils.
Typically, in passenger vehicles, it's only the thinner grades that use the stuff, 3.5HTHS 30s and upwards use lower amounts, if any.
Here's a paper
http://www.crodalubricants.com/download....9e-0157e039c5a9
Looking at the charts, please note that it's all the left side of the Stribeck curve...they all meet at the low point on the RHS of the Croda charts, as that's the "min friction point", and everything to the right is hydrodynamic, full film, and not where the FMs are active.
So I am getting ready for another oil change; do I go Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 with Motor Oil Saver or Valovoline Maxlife Synthetic with LM Mos2?
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