E15 coming soon?

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Another poster commented that the decision on whether ethanol is required is made my the states. In some cases, that is true. As an example, I live in Minnesota, which has mandated E10 use statewide in 1997. Non-ethanol fuel is available, but only as premium, and only at retailers who choose to carry it. Surprisingly, the list of states that mandate ethanol isn't terribly easy to determine. The last list I could find stated six states required E10 blends.

The reasons everywhere else went to E10 vary, but originally some of it was driven by reformulated fuel standards. Those originally required an oxygenate, and Ethanol and MTBE were the common choices. MTBE was phased out when its groundwater polluting issues were determined to outweigh its benefits.

The reformulated fuel requirement for an oxygenate essentially went away though when the RFS standard took its place. Essentially, it requires refiners and other non-oxygenate blenders and importers to displace just over 10% of their non-renewable fuels with renewables. That is the reason E10 fuels tended to show up everywhere else - refiners were required to show they were meeting the standard. Not state mandates, but a federal one.
 
Lastly, in regards to corn and irrigation, true, the majority of corn country does not depend on irrigation. However, there are parts of it that do.
The number that Iowa receives 34 inches of rain a year is true - on average. Yet there are parts of Iowa, like the far NW corner where that number falls to 25 inches a year. At lower rainfalls and certain soil types, irrigation becomes much more important to providing a reliable crop. Much of the corn grown in Nebraksa for example does require irrigation. Corn grown in sandier soils in Minnesota often requires irrigation.

Ethanol plants also use considerable amounts of groundwater - which has become an issue in some Southwestern MN areas, where groundwater resources are not as plentiful as one might think. Very true though that regular oil based activities require substantial amounts of water - not much different in that respect.

Looking out and working with the ag community though, the impact of ethanol here has been to try to put as much land as possible into corn production - even the marginal, poor producing land that has erosion and flooding problems. That is my biggest issue with ethanol - the use of prime farmland for fuel, rather than food or supply of food for other animals, etc... The impacts of this are large - and even Iowa, where corn is king is not immune. Take a look at the lawsuit filed by the Des Moines waterworks regarding water pollution in its water sources for Des Moines. The ag industry works relentlessly for no regulation of their activities, but sure likes it when regulations are placed on the rest of us to use their products!
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I know when I have struck gold when folks use ad hominem attacks.


Ad hominem tu quoque
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
That's right, it takes 2-2.5 gallons of water to produce one gallon of gasoline and it takes just under 3 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. I know, facts can be tough to handle.


OK, that's got my B$ gland tingling.

Got a link to that fact ?


Well, I got it from the University of Illinois website that sourced the data from EPA. See the highlighted box on this page referencing water use by various industries....

http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
That's right, it takes 2-2.5 gallons of water to produce one gallon of gasoline and it takes just under 3 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. I know, facts can be tough to handle.


OK, that's got my B$ gland tingling.

Got a link to that fact ?


Well, I got it from the University of Illinois website that sourced the data from EPA. See the highlighted box on this page referencing water use by various industries....

http://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm



Yep, that's only looking at the ethanol "refinery"...ignores the grain production cost, hiding it in the inches of rainfall requirement.

Is the link that includes the consumption to grow the stuff

For reference, 12" of water over a square foot is 7-1/2 gallons.
 
Well, let's be fair here. What of all the water demands from well and oils sands to refinery? As much or more than agriculture! That is also addressed in the Argonne National Lab study. I limited my scope to refining of petroleum and ethanol only to make it an equivalent discussion. At least you could be honest and stay in the same realm. But it you want to factor in all the water that goes into agriculture production, you have to include all the water that is used from well to fuel pump. Using that, the argument that agriculture uses more water than petroleum "dries up" pretty quickly. And is more than disingenuous to include rainfall in the argument. That is going to occur naturally anyway whether or not we grow any crops or drill for any oil. To be honest, one has to only include extracted and drawn water in the argument.

http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/po...ethanol-gas.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Well, let's be fair here. What of all the water demands from well and oils sands to refinery? As much or more than agriculture! That is also addressed in the Argonne National Lab study. I limited my scope to refining of petroleum and ethanol only to make it an equivalent discussion. At least you could be honest and stay in the same realm. But it you want to factor in all the water that goes into agriculture production, you have to include all the water that is used from well to fuel pump. Using that, the argument that agriculture uses more water than petroleum "dries up" pretty quickly. And is more than disingenuous to include rainfall in the argument. That is going to occur naturally anyway whether or not we grow any crops or drill for any oil. To be honest, one has to only include extracted and drawn water in the argument.

http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/po...ethanol-gas.pdf


That's a long winded way of saying

Quote:
Shannow, I couldn't be arsed to read the information on the link that you provided, because if I had, I would have seen that it provided cradle to grave data for different oil production regions, such as the tar sands in Canada as well as the water used by the Saudis, in addition to other forms of ethanol production.

In not having actually read the article, I'll call you out as dishonest, and feel quite morally justified in doing so, and post a 3 year OLDER version of the study that you linked to.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Boats, small engines and motorcycles can't however.

These items, with today's cheap fuel systems, can't survive E0 any better.


My motorcycle is explicitly approved to run on E10.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: gizzsdad
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How about a completely unique concept?

Why not have a choice for the consumer? Let the product stand on its own legs financially and compete in the marketplace like any other.

No mandates, no subsidies, just competition...


Steve for President!!!!

I just read the online version of the OM for the next car I intend to buy - and it expressly says NO to E15.



Which car is that? I thought everything (cars & trucks) made after 2001 could run E-15. Boats, small engines and motorcycles can't however.


You thought wrong...all of my Toyotas specifically say NO E15
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: supton
I read a National Geo article years ago that said the natural aquifiers in the midwest were getting pumped dry trying to grow corn. Not sure what the situation is today.

That is a lot of water per gallon of ethanol!


Gonna be hard pressed to tell that to the folks who live in the Midwest! Truth is, 15% of farm ground in the U.S. is irrigated. That is mostly produce farm ground like the veggies you buy at the store that come from Imperial Valley and the San Joachin Valley type regions. Sure, some midwest farm ground gets some irrigation, but it doesn't hardly make a blip on the radar. Irrigation is a little more common west of the Missouri River. Most corn growing areas in the Midwest use no irrigation at all.

And water to make ethanol, sure. But it also takes water to make petroleum fuels! Didn't know that, eh? Guess what, ethanol production only uses less than a quarter more volume of water to produce a gallon of ethanol than the refineries use to produce a gallon of gasoline. That's right, it takes 2-2.5 gallons of water to produce one gallon of gasoline and it takes just under 3 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. I know, facts can be tough to handle. But to also make the point, most of the water used for each purpose is recycled, so that the actual volume of water used is considerably less than the amounts shown for both gas and ethanol would imply from the per gallon rate.

And 1" of rain on one acre of ground is equivalent to 27154 gallons of water per the U.S. Geological Service. And given that Iowa, for one, gets over 35" of rain a year, I don' think anything is in jeopardy because a lot of corn is grown there. Kinda hard to fathom that corn and ethanol are depleting water when Iowa, for one, gets on average almost 1 million gallons of water per acre per year from Ma nature. The other mega corn producing states in the region, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Minnesota (a little less rain though), etc are in the same rain belt as Iowa.


The fertilizer run off into the Maumee River Valley in Western Ohio is causing huge algae bloom problems in Lake Erie. This is directly linked to increased corn farming.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
[

You thought wrong...all of my Toyotas specifically say NO E15


And youre going to believe that, but not believe their guidelines on oil consumption.

There is no excuse for all vehicles sold here not to be completely flex fuel compatible. Everybody knew this was coming.
 
And it's time for the OPE guys to get on board. Maybe they need a federally mandated warranty on fuel systems.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
And it's time for the OPE guys to get on board. Maybe they need a federally mandated warranty on fuel systems.
wink.gif



Or maybe you throw them in the dumpster after a few years like normal people. Or maybe its all in their heads. The rest of the world outside of Florida has been doing just fine.
 
Making excuses for a division of oversight that clearly did not do their due diligence to see if this would be truly practicable in the real world.
For the record this happens at both ends of the spectrum.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Or maybe you throw them in the dumpster after a few years like normal people. Or maybe its all in their heads. The rest of the world outside of Florida has been doing just fine.

OPE mechanics/dealers just like to blame all their problems on ethanol, rather than shoddy products.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog

The fertilizer run off into the Maumee River Valley in Western Ohio is causing huge algae bloom problems in Lake Erie. This is directly linked to increased corn farming.


As opposed to the mutant fish that were being caught out of Lake Erie in the 60's and 70's and the Cuyahoga river catching on fire in 1969 due to pollution? Buckeye's need to step up and be a little more proactive in a lot of ways.
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
EPA says its OK for use in all 2001 and up vehicles despite the manufacturers saying its not.


It's so nice and self-serving for the EPA to say that.
They don't have to pay for the vehicle repairs.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Doog

The fertilizer run off into the Maumee River Valley in Western Ohio is causing huge algae bloom problems in Lake Erie. This is directly linked to increased corn farming.


As opposed to the mutant fish that were being caught out of Lake Erie in the 60's and 70's and the Cuyahoga river catching on fire in 1969 due to pollution? Buckeye's need to step up and be a little more proactive in a lot of ways.


Now be nice! Lake Erie is a lot better since they repaved it.
(Couldn't help it. That's an old joke I heard when I was growing up in Ohio.)
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
EPA says its OK for use in all 2001 and up vehicles despite the manufacturers saying its not.


It's so nice and self-serving for the EPA to say that.
They don't have to pay for the vehicle repairs.


What would need repairing?
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Boats, small engines and motorcycles can't however.

These items, with today's cheap fuel systems, can't survive E0 any better.


My motorcycle is explicitly approved to run on E10.


My car too; 370K on 10% ethanol; no fuel related issues.
 
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