Piston driven AR's
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Originally Posted By: hatt
Serious. Have you guys ever heard of non chlorinated brake cleaner? Makes quick work of cleaning modern guns.
I've heard of it. I just have no use for it. I can understand why you do. Enjoy your new pastime.
Serious. Have you guys ever heard of non chlorinated brake cleaner? Makes quick work of cleaning modern guns.
I've heard of it. I just have no use for it. I can understand why you do. Enjoy your new pastime.
Originally Posted By: kmrcstintn
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: kmrcstintn
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
I hit mine with brake cleaner every couple years whether they need it or not. Takes like 5 minutes.
guess I gotta be more specific...due to the amount of crud thrown into the upper receiver with a direct gas impingment system the friggin bolt carrier and its contents need much more frequent cleaning!
I'd agree with you if you had said 'more frequent lubrication'.
DI guns do dry out faster, and do need to be oiled more frequently to keep running. The powder fouling, as long as it's kept wet with lube, doesn't I pare the action in the least.
TLDR version:
Dry and clean = bad.
Wet and dirty = good
BSW
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: kmrcstintn
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
I hit mine with brake cleaner every couple years whether they need it or not. Takes like 5 minutes.
guess I gotta be more specific...due to the amount of crud thrown into the upper receiver with a direct gas impingment system the friggin bolt carrier and its contents need much more frequent cleaning!
I'd agree with you if you had said 'more frequent lubrication'.
DI guns do dry out faster, and do need to be oiled more frequently to keep running. The powder fouling, as long as it's kept wet with lube, doesn't I pare the action in the least.
TLDR version:
Dry and clean = bad.
Wet and dirty = good
BSW
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle. In BITOG terms the piston AR is like a K@N airfilter. A quality AR is probably the finest military type] rifle ever fielded. high use M4 rental life postings Then there is the filthy 14 BCM write up
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Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle. In BITOG terms the piston AR is like a K@N airfilter. A quality AR is probably the finest military type] rifle ever fielded. high use M4 rental life postings Then there is the filthy 14 BCM write up
You do realize that Filthy 14 broke a couple of bolts during that run?
I don't have any information about the reliability and/or durability of all the forward gas piston conversions that are available, so I wouldn't comment there.
As far as the AR series being the best rifle ever fielded, it depends what you mean by best: If you mean longest serving with the U.S. Army, then yes. But the AK type has an even longer service history. If you mean adopted by the most countries I think the FAL and G3 might give it a run for its money.
BSW
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle. In BITOG terms the piston AR is like a K@N airfilter. A quality AR is probably the finest military type] rifle ever fielded. high use M4 rental life postings Then there is the filthy 14 BCM write up
You do realize that Filthy 14 broke a couple of bolts during that run?
I don't have any information about the reliability and/or durability of all the forward gas piston conversions that are available, so I wouldn't comment there.
As far as the AR series being the best rifle ever fielded, it depends what you mean by best: If you mean longest serving with the U.S. Army, then yes. But the AK type has an even longer service history. If you mean adopted by the most countries I think the FAL and G3 might give it a run for its money.
BSW
Very interesting video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBO7P43sLVE
Pretty much says everything I have to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBO7P43sLVE
Pretty much says everything I have to say.
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
Please note that a Piston Driven AR-15 with the capability of going full auto is a different beast than a AR-15 without the capablilty of going full auto.
If you are speaking about using a AR-15 like a Squad Automatic Weapon, and placing 100's and perhaps 1000's of rounds downrange in a short amount of time, then yes, I'd agree that a piston driven weapon system is the way to go.
In this case I'd prefer a full length operating rod that is directly attached to the bolt carrier so that there is extra mass and reduces the cyclical rate of fire.
However, if you don't have a "fun switch" or you do have a "fun switch" and you aren't planning on running it like a SAW.
Then I don't see where the argument is valid.
The H&K 416 was designed as a smaller lighter rifle, much like the M4 carbine, but with better sustained fire capabilities.
For most of us little guys, who don't have a government sized budget to buy ammo, the gas tube cuts down on weight, reciprocating parts, and cost.
I like my gas tubes. I've never had an issue.
If I want a short piston weapon system I have an SKS.
If I want a long piston weapon system I have an AK.
Personally, I really like my AR the best. I find it to be more refined, and even though I put mine together using well researched but budget parts myself I've never had any of the issues anyone speaks of.
The idea of a Piston Driven AR is interesting.
But for my application, I don't see the advantage.
If you are speaking about using a AR-15 like a Squad Automatic Weapon, and placing 100's and perhaps 1000's of rounds downrange in a short amount of time, then yes, I'd agree that a piston driven weapon system is the way to go.
In this case I'd prefer a full length operating rod that is directly attached to the bolt carrier so that there is extra mass and reduces the cyclical rate of fire.
However, if you don't have a "fun switch" or you do have a "fun switch" and you aren't planning on running it like a SAW.
Then I don't see where the argument is valid.
The H&K 416 was designed as a smaller lighter rifle, much like the M4 carbine, but with better sustained fire capabilities.
For most of us little guys, who don't have a government sized budget to buy ammo, the gas tube cuts down on weight, reciprocating parts, and cost.
I like my gas tubes. I've never had an issue.
If I want a short piston weapon system I have an SKS.
If I want a long piston weapon system I have an AK.
Personally, I really like my AR the best. I find it to be more refined, and even though I put mine together using well researched but budget parts myself I've never had any of the issues anyone speaks of.
The idea of a Piston Driven AR is interesting.
But for my application, I don't see the advantage.
I only need mine to save myself & family from the zombie apocalypse........no piston needed
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Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
The AR is FAR from the finest military rifle ever fielded. It is cheap, serviceable, and modular...therefore adaptable in design. The very frugal U.S. military (in terms of small arms spending) likes that and that is the reason it has been so long lived.
As mentioned the FAL was the most successful followed by the HK G3. The AK has been made over 100 million times in its various forms, a feat only ever reached by one other rifle...the Mauser.
As mentioned the FAL was the most successful followed by the HK G3. The AK has been made over 100 million times in its various forms, a feat only ever reached by one other rifle...the Mauser.
There is an awesome thread going on at AR15.com that was started by an owner of a range in Las Vegas. He discusses guns that have over 100,000 rounds through them. He has several armorers that keep them running. You may want to check it out, but one quote that is relative to this thread is the following:
Regarding gas piston systems, the pistons have snapped (or bent) and even some of the roller cam pins have snapped right off. The only one to last so far has been the HK system.
Regarding gas piston systems, the pistons have snapped (or bent) and even some of the roller cam pins have snapped right off. The only one to last so far has been the HK system.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
What do you mean? The HK416 is a forward piston driven upper that's totally usable with any M16/AR lower. If that doesn't qualify as a piston conversion what would?
BSW
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
What do you mean? The HK416 is a forward piston driven upper that's totally usable with any M16/AR lower. If that doesn't qualify as a piston conversion what would?
BSW
Originally Posted By: bsmithwins
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
What do you mean? The HK416 is a forward piston driven upper that's totally usable with any M16/AR lower. If that doesn't qualify as a piston conversion what would?
BSW
He may mean that it isn't a Conversion.
I'm not sure if the 416 has any convertable parts, or if it is a complete upper assembly designed for the full auto side of life that the Special Forces community wants.
Anyone know how many parts are "convertable" from a standard AR upper to a 416? Or from a 416 back to a AR-15?
Just curious.
At some point though we are splitting hairs.
A full auto firing schedule is totally different than a semi-auto firing schedule.
Things that don't wear out in a 10,000 round / 5 year schedule
Wear out quick in a 100,000 round / 5 month schedule
Regardless of system. Heat isn't your friend.
Full auto provides plenty of that regardless of system.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: CT8
The reliability and operating life will not even come close to a quality DI rifle.
That is absolute nonsense. Both the U.S. Navy Seals, as well as the Army Special Forces use the H&K 416, (piston operated AR platform). These people can have most any weapon they desire. Why would they deliberately choose one that was, "less reliable", when their very lives depend on it's operation 100% of the time..... All the time?
The HK is not a piston conversion.
What do you mean? The HK416 is a forward piston driven upper that's totally usable with any M16/AR lower. If that doesn't qualify as a piston conversion what would?
BSW
He may mean that it isn't a Conversion.
I'm not sure if the 416 has any convertable parts, or if it is a complete upper assembly designed for the full auto side of life that the Special Forces community wants.
Anyone know how many parts are "convertable" from a standard AR upper to a 416? Or from a 416 back to a AR-15?
Just curious.
At some point though we are splitting hairs.
A full auto firing schedule is totally different than a semi-auto firing schedule.
Things that don't wear out in a 10,000 round / 5 year schedule
Wear out quick in a 100,000 round / 5 month schedule
Regardless of system. Heat isn't your friend.
Full auto provides plenty of that regardless of system.
Another note.
I know of piston driven systems for the AR lower.
The upper is completely redesigned to feed from a belt.
The AR lower is the same.
How different is the 416 upper?
Even though it fits on a AR-15 lower it may be a different beast all together.
I'm no expert in the 416.
I have looked at Piston's for AR's, and although intriguing, I havent purchased one yet.
I know of piston driven systems for the AR lower.
The upper is completely redesigned to feed from a belt.
The AR lower is the same.
How different is the 416 upper?
Even though it fits on a AR-15 lower it may be a different beast all together.
I'm no expert in the 416.
I have looked at Piston's for AR's, and although intriguing, I havent purchased one yet.
The H&K 416 is a piston operated AR-15 / M-16 platform rifle.... Period. It was chosen by most all of our elite military fighting units over ANY D.I. platform rifles they already had in their inventory. There was a good reason for that.
As far as longevity, these guys shoot more in a month, than most civi's do in decades. This regardless of how much the average enthusiast thinks he puts downrange. If these guns wore out faster, they wouldn't have them. They use them for a reason, and it isn't because they do things worse.
As far as longevity, these guys shoot more in a month, than most civi's do in decades. This regardless of how much the average enthusiast thinks he puts downrange. If these guns wore out faster, they wouldn't have them. They use them for a reason, and it isn't because they do things worse.
When you say it like that, yes I agree.
Extreme firing schedules will make a piston driven system make more sense.
Extreme firing schedules will make a piston driven system make more sense.
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Opinion of piston driven AR's? Are they worth it over a direct impingement AR? Some say it's a fix to a problem that never existed? Others say the problem with traditional AR's is they poop where they eat and that is a big issue?
Since I clean and maintain my AR after use, I don't experience reliability issues. Even after many hundreds of rounds on a "play" weekend.
I'm not sure I see any advantage.
Opinion of piston driven AR's? Are they worth it over a direct impingement AR? Some say it's a fix to a problem that never existed? Others say the problem with traditional AR's is they poop where they eat and that is a big issue?
Since I clean and maintain my AR after use, I don't experience reliability issues. Even after many hundreds of rounds on a "play" weekend.
I'm not sure I see any advantage.
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