Factory Fill Magic Elixir?

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Bear
Either way , it seems like a good idea not to change out the ff too early and to just follow the manufacturers recommended interval.


The question of whether to change FF early or not is probably one of the most polarizing topics on BITOG.

YES, another no win battle for both sides.

I agree.

There are UOA's of early factory fill oil change showed much higher wear metals so it is prudent to do so, and there are recommends by manufactures to keep factory fill for full OCI, owners who do so didn't suffer any damage to the engines.

So it depends on owner, if you like to change factory fill early go ahead do it, if you like to keep factory fill with high moly for full OCI, sleep well.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
There we go, I'm pretty sure I recall you mentioning that before, too. If they wanted a "real" break in lube, they wouldn't be using what they are.

hence honda FF is nothing extra special and contains no high doses of special AW additives nor any special friction modifiers - it simply a modern synthetic oil with a very high viscosity index, right ?

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Garak
There we go, I'm pretty sure I recall you mentioning that before, too. If they wanted a "real" break in lube, they wouldn't be using what they are.

hence honda FF is nothing extra special and contains no high doses of special AW additives nor any special friction modifiers - it simply a modern synthetic oil with a very high viscosity index, right ?


Probably a typical 0w-20 synthetic blend that has some added benefits from the washing-out of assembly lubes. Why Honda chooses to insist the factory fill be left in until the first regular OCI is still a bit of a mystery to me.

 

[tojo1968]

Quote:
"Your engine was filled with a high quality engine oil when it was built. You do not have to change the oil before the first recommended change interval."

This is the exact same sentence that is in the manual for my 2015 Frontier. Break in spec was 1200 miles. Changed the FF at 1600 miles. I will cut open the filter and post pics soon.
I wish I had taken pics of the FF filter from my 14 Focus ST. It had all kinds of metal particles and even some hair thin shavings caught up in the pleats.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I bet it's just residual assembly lube showing up in UOAs. I'd almost wager money on that one.

Almost? How much money would you almost like to wager?

-Dennis

 

[147_Grain]

The benefits of removing the metal break-in remnants from the factory fill outweigh the extra moly from the assembly lube used to help new engine parts mate together.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
The benefits of removing the metal break-in remnants from the factory fill outweigh the extra moly from the assembly lube used to help new engine parts mate together.

You're assuming that the remnants are small enough to pass through the oil filter media, yet big enough to cause issues. Do we know that they in fact cause issues that one would need to worry about?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
hence honda FF is nothing extra special and contains no high doses of special AW additives nor any special friction modifiers - it simply a modern synthetic oil with a very high viscosity index, right ?

That's pretty much what I'd gather.

bluesubie: I'd almost wager almost $10, I think, to really go out of a limb here!

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: Garak

bluesubie: I'd almost wager almost $10, I think, to really go out of a limb here!

Hmmm, CAD 10?

Over the past couple of years, I've noticed that the moly and ZDDP levels in Subaru factory fills dropping, with the exception of the STI which still shows very high levels (~1,000 ppm's mo,z, and p). I suspect they (Idemitsu) may be experimenting with the factory fill (if the uoa's are accurate

).

Anyway, back when the Subaru/Idemitsu oil was API SM (0W20 and 5W30) it was highly sought after for high moly levels. A fellow bitoger inquired to Idemitsu about the moly in the factory fill and the dealer oil, and this is part of the response:

Quote:

You ask some very good questions which I will answer in “generalities”...

OEMs specify Moly in their factory fill formulations to increase fuel economy during the initial period. In general a factory fill formula will be more robust in the additive treatments etc. This is done for a variety of reasons which I will not go into here.

Some of the service fill formulations also contained molybdenum however, with the transition to the ILSAC GF-5 specification, most 0W-20 service fill 0W-20 formulations now do not have Moly. That being said, you are always safest following the OEMs recommendations. All service fill OE formulas that we supply have been submitted to a full battery of tests at that respective OEM’s R&D facilities in Japan and have been approved.

He's being a little vague but does give an indication that the factory fill oil is more robust than the dealer oil. Of course, they came out with GF5 Mazda High Moly after the above correspondence.

 

[Garak]

Yes, only $10 Canadian, not American, and that's only almost, remember!

I can certainly see a high ZDDP oil for break in, even as a factory fill, but as for moly, who really knows? An oil with no moly or a fair bit will have a lot in a subsequent UOA if it's a factory fill loaded with a bunch of washed away assembly lube.

 

[The_Captain]

I am going to dump the factory fill. I got a NAPA gold filter and 6 quarts of Kendall synthetic blend ready to go!

 

[SoNic67]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

You're assuming that the remnants are small enough to pass through the oil filter media, yet big enough to cause issues. Do we know that they in fact cause issues that one would need to worry about?

The particles always bypass the filter at start-up (high viscosity - high pressure drop) and when the filter is clogged, even at high rpms (again high pressure drop).
If the oil filters didn't have bypass valves, the media would be blown in pieces at the first start-up.

Also the magnet in the oil pan does nothing for the non-magnetic particles resulted from bearing linings. Is not the steel shaft that gets 'mated', is the copper/lead (Ford/GE) or aluminum (Japanese) in the bearing linings.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
The benefits of removing the metal break-in remnants from the factory fill outweigh the extra moly from the assembly lube used to help new engine parts mate together.

You're assuming that the remnants are small enough to pass through the oil filter media, yet big enough to cause issues. Do we know that they in fact cause issues that one would need to worry about?


Despite all the hoo ha NO ONE has conclusively proved that this early drain idea has any positive effects at all.

It's a "feel good" mod just like a BIG oil filter...

 

[Eddie]

Manufactures seem to agree with SteveSRT8. I always leave FF in for at least 3/4 of FOCI. Ed

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
The benefits of removing the metal break-in remnants from the factory fill outweigh the extra moly from the assembly lube used to help new engine parts mate together.

You're assuming that the remnants are small enough to pass through the oil filter media, yet big enough to cause issues. Do we know that they in fact cause issues that one would need to worry about?


Despite all the hoo ha NO ONE has conclusively proved that this early drain idea has any positive effects at all.

It's a "feel good" mod just like a BIG oil filter...



Exactly. Whatever break in metal flecks are in the oil pan don't make it into the engine. They are very easily filtered out,so the idea is nonsense.
Unless of course there's no oil filter installed.
There's a reason Honda insists on running the factory fill for the entirety of the first interval.
After building hundreds of millions of engines they might know what they are talking about.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Despite all the hoo ha NO ONE has conclusively proved that this early drain idea has any positive effects at all.

It's a "feel good" mod just like a BIG oil filter...

Agreed.

 

[The_Captain]

Well did my first oil change on my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I had a 2012 model with the Pentastar. That engine was very easy on oil. I ran Pennzoil Ultra for all but the last 3 oil changes on that engine. The last 3 were Kendall synthetic 5w-30. The Kendall had better wear numbers than the Ultra. The Kendall was always below universal averages. I went back with Kendall and a NAPA Gold on the 2015. Kendall has made me a believer! It is a solid oil with a stout additive pack. Wear numbers don't lie! I wish it was more widely distributed and marketed better!
Anybody got any for sale in Upstate South Carolina?

 

[virginoil]

OEMs are stupid what do they know about Factory fill despite giving a full engine warranty to underwrite the recommendations during the first 3years.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Despite all the hoo ha NO ONE has conclusively proved that this early drain idea has any positive effects at all.
It's a "feel good" mod just like a BIG oil filter...

Exactly. Whatever break in metal flecks are in the oil pan don't make it into the engine. They are very easily filtered out,so the idea is nonsense.
Unless of course there's no oil filter installed.
There's a reason Honda insists on running the factory fill for the entirety of the first interval.
After building hundreds of millions of engines they might know what they are talking about.

true indeed.

 

[4wheeldog]

I am a habitual oil changer. My son.......Somehow, it skips a generation. He has a 2012 Fit. When I was in the area, and found out that they had gone past the OLM limit by several hundred miles, I offered to show him how to do an oil change.....Something I could not get him interested in, back in his formative years.

Anyway, the car had 30k mile on it. The oil (Whatever the dealer put in) looked like......Any other oil I might drain. He then mentioned that this was only the second time the oil was changed.......So, the oil monitor figures that 15k miles, and 18 months is just fine.

I put in M1EP in 0W/20 grade. And a Fram synthetic filter. For what will most likely be another 15k run.