Spark Plug Change

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Bosch OE parts are great! But Bosch aftermarket parts are [censored].


Yes, I have found that as well... the aftermarket multi electrode Bosch Platinum seem to not be all they are cracked up to be... like alot of things in life...

Originally Posted By: BHopkins
Count me as one of those that believes that AC plugs go in GM cars and trucks, Bosch plugs go in European cars, NGK goes in Asian cars, Autolite in a Ford, Mopar in a Chrysler, and Champion plugs should never, ever go in a car, only a small engine such as a lawn mower, leaf blower, etc.

My first experience with this was when I used to drive a VW Dasher. Loved the car, but it did require frequent spark plug changes. One time I tried AC plugs. The car ran like [censored] until I went back to Bosch. Having not fully learned the lesson, later on I put Champion plugs in an Olds Cutlass. That was a terrible experience. For years after that, I wouldn't even buy a Champion plug for a lawn mower. Both times I was using the plug that was supposed to be a direct fit for the car.

So yes, I do stay with the brand of plug a car comes with. But this is based upon solid life experience. Fool me once . . .


I would tend to agree with that also... EXCEPT the fact that Champion are still likely O.E. fitment in like probably 90% of Chrysler products... Just sayin'... I don't believe Mopar even makes a plug anymore... I don't believe AC Delco makes any of their precious metal plugs of their own anymore, either.. NGK's...

BurrWinder


Champion is one of my go-to brands (along with Autolite and NGK), nothing at all wrong with them. But they're no longer universally found OEM in Chrysler products. My 08 Ram had Bosch, my Challenger had Denso. Not sure what's in the JGC (don't plan to go through the pain to find out early, either). IIRC our 05 PT was the last one that I found Champion plugs in.

Spark plugs are for the most part a very standardized piece of engineering and they're all comparable... except for when a company tries to get creative and deviates from the well-refined design- like the Bosch fine-wire platinum electrode flush with the insulator face, and various multi-electrode nonsense like Split-Fire and Bosch tried. Those are when you get a brand with a reputation for "bad" spark plugs.

Trivia: the "C" in "AC" spark plugs stands for "Champion." Albert Champion was involved in starting both companies, and after he died GM bought out his share of AC and it ultimately became a GM subsidiary.

 

[HangFire]

To the OP, you changed them out at just the right time.

Spark plug brands are a very hot button topic. I have my own strong opinions, but what matters is what your engine likes. If you track your fuel economy with every fillup, that will tell you something. Easy starting, smooth idle, and good acceleration will tell you the rest. If all of these are good then your choice is good. If any of these go down hill, try another brand or type.

 

[BurrWinder]

I have found that the internal construction of Champion plugs tends to be different... they use an air gap and different style resistor in their resistor plugs - and Autolite, AC, NGK, others - use a solid metallic conductor that is more robust.. Example ... if you have some used ones around... break them open at the insulator and inspect them.
Unless they are different now, for year they have been made this way and it doesn't always "work" in harmony with some of the feedback ignition systems that the manufacturers use. This can cause misfire issues. Unless of course it is spec'd from OE with them... Have found this on an oscilloscope and doing misfire diagnostics on vehicles in the past. They do not have to be "worn" to cause this issue either..

As you stated, you haven't seen them in awhile on some newer Chryslers' then. If that is the case, I am not sure if ANYONE, automotive wise, uses them as OE installs in 2015...

So, it's not like their influence and use is growing then.


BurrWinder

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Champion is also OK when they are the OE supplier. Many Volvos of the 00's came with Champions from the factory. Unfortunately, they stopped making the Volvo-spec RC8PYP

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
What would be wrong with using them until they start to misfire under load and set a code? I'm no expert but wouldn't the computer pick up a problem and give you ample warning?


Could you wait that long ? .. Yes.
Should you ? I wouldn't. A number of cars (esp. GM that I know of for sure) use the plug gap as an "Ionization Sensor" to measure things in the combustion chamber. When they are neglected too long ( past 100K or recom. time ) They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc) This overheats other components and creates more problems in the long run. Also, yes - with just the clean, sharp gapped plugs, precious or otherwise, at the required mileage will keep cylinder combustion efficiency up where it belongs.

Oh and if they aren't newer nickel plated plugs and or coated with any anti seize coating - at higher mileage on some engines they may not WANT to come out !!

BurrWinder



"They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc)" Sounds like a load of [censored] to me....

 

[philipp10]

Lots of posters here are worried if they wait too long the plug will get frozen in the head. How can it matter if it is 60k miles or 100k miles. I would think the difference would be moot. Frozen is frozen and at 60k if the plug is going to bond to the threads, it already has.

 

[Vikas]

Most OEM plugs come with plating on the thread. I have replaced at over 125K on all my three cars and all came out fine. Some did make noise which I did not like but apparently that is common.

Of course, I am not talking about a Ford here!!! That is the exception for proving the rule

 

[WobblyElvis]

My son has to have some fancy car so he goes and buys a used Cadillac CTS with 90,000 miles on it. Car runs fine for a year but then it starts to lose power when climbing a grade and the check engine light comes on. Mechanic hooks it up to his scanner and says "you need all new plugs and I suggest 3 new coils". I say horse dung! and we change the plugs [factory original]. The car's been running fine for a year now. Coils have to be a real money maker for a garage.

 

[BurrWinder]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
What would be wrong with using them until they start to misfire under load and set a code? I'm no expert but wouldn't the computer pick up a problem and give you ample warning?


Could you wait that long ? .. Yes.
Should you ? I wouldn't. A number of cars (esp. GM that I know of for sure) use the plug gap as an "Ionization Sensor" to measure things in the combustion chamber. When they are neglected too long ( past 100K or recom. time ) They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc) This overheats other components and creates more problems in the long run. Also, yes - with just the clean, sharp gapped plugs, precious or otherwise, at the required mileage will keep cylinder combustion efficiency up where it belongs.

Oh and if they aren't newer nickel plated plugs and or coated with any anti seize coating - at higher mileage on some engines they may not WANT to come out !!

BurrWinder



"They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc)" Sounds like a load of [censored] to me....




Yes, It is a whole load of monkey dung... 'Cause, you know, I have only worked in a shop for 25 years fixing cars that "some neighbor guy/mechanic told me..." clowns that didn't understand how ignition systems worked from points systems up to modern day COP !!
YES, modern day ignitions ARE QUITE DURABLE... but continue with that attitude and sooner or later "We'll see ya !!" By the side of the road or on a hook !!

BurrWinder

 

[BurrWinder]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
What would be wrong with using them until they start to misfire under load and set a code? I'm no expert but wouldn't the computer pick up a problem and give you ample warning?


Could you wait that long ? .. Yes.
Should you ? I wouldn't. A number of cars (esp. GM that I know of for sure) use the plug gap as an "Ionization Sensor" to measure things in the combustion chamber. When they are neglected too long ( past 100K or recom. time ) They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc) This overheats other components and creates more problems in the long run. Also, yes - with just the clean, sharp gapped plugs, precious or otherwise, at the required mileage will keep cylinder combustion efficiency up where it belongs.

Oh and if they aren't newer nickel plated plugs and or coated with any anti seize coating - at higher mileage on some engines they may not WANT to come out !!

BurrWinder



"They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc)" Sounds like a load of [censored] to me....



Yes, It is a whole load of monkey dung... 'Cause, you know, I have only worked in a shop for 25 years fixing cars that "some neighbor guy/mechanic told me..." clowns that didn't understand how ignition systems worked from points systems up to modern day COP !!
YES, modern day ignitions ARE QUITE DURABLE... but continue with that attitude and sooner or later "We'll see ya !!" By the side of the road or on a hook !!

BurrWinder

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: BurrWinder
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
What would be wrong with using them until they start to misfire under load and set a code? I'm no expert but wouldn't the computer pick up a problem and give you ample warning?


Could you wait that long ? .. Yes.
Should you ? I wouldn't. A number of cars (esp. GM that I know of for sure) use the plug gap as an "Ionization Sensor" to measure things in the combustion chamber. When they are neglected too long ( past 100K or recom. time ) They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc) This overheats other components and creates more problems in the long run. Also, yes - with just the clean, sharp gapped plugs, precious or otherwise, at the required mileage will keep cylinder combustion efficiency up where it belongs.

Oh and if they aren't newer nickel plated plugs and or coated with any anti seize coating - at higher mileage on some engines they may not WANT to come out !!

BurrWinder



"They start to be hard on (stressing out) the ignition system ( the coils, wires ( or just the boots ) the ignition IC circuitry for the ignition module, etc)" Sounds like a load of [censored] to me....


And we have another BITOG expert...

Maybe you should take into account that as plugs wear, gaps open and round so the coil(s) are required to build higher voltage to jump the gap... Higher voltages create additional corona/ozone that attacks the insulation and as already mentioned coils could possibly over head from additional current required to operate them...

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
And we have another BITOG expert...

Maybe you should take into account that as plugs wear, gaps open and round so the coil(s) are required to build higher voltage to jump the gap... Higher voltages create additional corona/ozone that attacks the insulation and as already mentioned coils could possibly over head from additional current required to operate them...


Please tell us about one of these ignition systems that "build higher voltage to jump the gap". Any examples?

 

[TFB1]

Every system in every vehicle on the road can vary the voltage...

What's not understood is a modern system can produce approx 30-35Kv(vs maybe 15Kv of a '60s points system) but isn't required, because a good spark plug will fire at roughly 6-8Kv(depends on gap)... Or in other words a good plug will "clamp" the voltage from rising to full potential... Even badly worn plugs will generally fire at 12-14Kv which is still not nearly at the systems full potential(but that '60s system has long gone to lunch)... The double in voltage required creates additional potential to break down insulation on boots, wires, & coilS...

Does that mean you're going to have at issues at 100K mi, 150K mi, 200K mi?? Dunno, but eventually something WILL fail, and no doubt sooner than if plugs had been serviced at recommended interval...

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Every system in every vehicle on the road can vary the voltage...

What's not understood is a modern system can produce approx 30-35Kv(vs maybe 15Kv of a '60s points system) but isn't required, because a good spark plug will fire at roughly 6-8Kv(depends on gap)... Or in other words a good plug will "clamp" the voltage from rising to full potential... Even badly worn plugs will generally fire at 12-14Kv which is still not nearly at the systems full potential(but that '60s system has long gone to lunch)... The double in voltage required creates additional potential to break down insulation on boots, wires, & coilS...

Does that mean you're going to have at issues at 100K mi, 150K mi, 200K mi?? Dunno, but eventually something WILL fail, and no doubt sooner than if plugs had been serviced at recommended interval...


this is getting into some pretty serious physics....and possibly some pretty serious [censored] too...lol. Generating more ozone which breaks down the insulation on your wires....really? Can you prove that?

 

[BurrWinder]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Every system in every vehicle on the road can vary the voltage...

What's not understood is a modern system can produce approx 30-35Kv(vs maybe 15Kv of a '60s points system) but isn't required, because a good spark plug will fire at roughly 6-8Kv(depends on gap)... Or in other words a good plug will "clamp" the voltage from rising to full potential... Even badly worn plugs will generally fire at 12-14Kv which is still not nearly at the systems full potential(but that '60s system has long gone to lunch)... The double in voltage required creates additional potential to break down insulation on boots, wires, & coilS...

Does that mean you're going to have at issues at 100K mi, 150K mi, 200K mi?? Dunno, but eventually something WILL fail, and no doubt sooner than if plugs had been serviced at recommended interval...


this is getting into some pretty serious physics....and possibly some pretty serious [censored] too...lol. Generating more ozone which breaks down the insulation on your wires....really? Can you prove that?


As others here have tried to explain to you, there is no "black magic" or B. S. being dished out here.. It is simple electrical physics law - Faraday's law of induction - for a coil - that proves we are correct. Despite all the smoke and mirrors of modern technology, it still operates on the same laws.
Until you can have a better education reference on issues such as this (self taught or schooled) please stop arguing points about which it seems you have no clue. Saves everyone else time and frustration.. including you.

BurrWinder

 

[ltslimjim]

I just replaced some basic PK20TT Denso plugs that were in the new to me 07 Fit. Replaced with OE Denso SKJ20DR-M13 Long-life Iridiums.