PAO vs Esters in an MTF....
- Thread starter badtlc
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Well, I use some ester in place of "stop leak" in everything ... Helps a lot. But should be viscosity matched in my trannies as in my engines. Cured a small valve cover and tranny seal that way.
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MolaKule
Staff member
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?
What viscosities of PAOs?
What viscosities of PAOs?
Well, Castrol syntrans multivehicle 75w-90 GL-4 seems to use esters or some other organic chemistry as antiwear agent and likely as friction modifier aswell.
There's a VOA on the site.
There's a VOA on the site.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?
What viscosities of PAOs?
Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.
I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.
but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?
What viscosities of PAOs?
Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.
I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.
but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.
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I've wondered the same thing too. Does either/or shift better,protect better,last longer in service,etc.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?
What viscosities of PAOs?
Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.
I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.
but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.
Most of the higher end synthetic MTFs contain a mix of GroupIII, IV, and V base oils.
The base oils mainly affect low temperature shifter drag and maintain a better fluid film at higher temperatures due to their inherent VI.
It is the additive package that will affect your synchro engagement.
I would concentrate on finding a dedicated MTF that has a viscosity close to your tranny spec, and it appears the Redline MTL or the Amsoil MTF is close.
See:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/2
specifically post #2813713.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?
What viscosities of PAOs?
Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.
I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.
but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.
Most of the higher end synthetic MTFs contain a mix of GroupIII, IV, and V base oils.
The base oils mainly affect low temperature shifter drag and maintain a better fluid film at higher temperatures due to their inherent VI.
It is the additive package that will affect your synchro engagement.
I would concentrate on finding a dedicated MTF that has a viscosity close to your tranny spec, and it appears the Redline MTL or the Amsoil MTF is close.
See:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/2
specifically post #2813713.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: CT8
Probably the quality of the blender is most important than what base oil is used.
of course but that doesn't address the different pros and cons of the base stock choices blenders have.
The advantages are in the blenders quality . The [best] base stock blended poorly will defeat the base oils advantage.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Probably the quality of the blender is most important than what base oil is used.
of course but that doesn't address the different pros and cons of the base stock choices blenders have.
The advantages are in the blenders quality . The [best] base stock blended poorly will defeat the base oils advantage.
There are so many esters that comparing them as a class to PAO is meaningless. Generally when both a PAO and an ester is used it is due to seal compatibility issues with straight PAO at low ester level to various performance benefits at higher levels. The general rule of cost and quality holds. Polyol esters have very good properties, dibasic adipates are almost as good, phthalate cannot be used in California and monobasic are worthless as lubricants. Complex, trimellitates, and others dibasic can be anywhere.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: CT8
Probably the quality of the blender is most important than what base oil is used.
of course but that doesn't address the different pros and cons of the base stock choices blenders have.
Then I am not sure what you are asking.
We use various viscosities of various base oil groups to achieve the stated performance goals.
The total formulation is what matters as to performance. As stated before, focusing on base oil alone is myopic.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Probably the quality of the blender is most important than what base oil is used.
of course but that doesn't address the different pros and cons of the base stock choices blenders have.
Then I am not sure what you are asking.
We use various viscosities of various base oil groups to achieve the stated performance goals.
The total formulation is what matters as to performance. As stated before, focusing on base oil alone is myopic.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Then I am not sure what you are asking.
We use various viscosities of various base oil groups to achieve the stated performance goals.
The total formulation is what matters as to performance. As stated before, focusing on base oil alone is myopic.
Of course it is myopic. That is the point. To discuss the minute details of what goes into choosing type and percentages of different base stocks. The full formula is easy to go into and done to death around here. We need more details with in depth discussions.
Then I am not sure what you are asking.
We use various viscosities of various base oil groups to achieve the stated performance goals.
The total formulation is what matters as to performance. As stated before, focusing on base oil alone is myopic.
Of course it is myopic. That is the point. To discuss the minute details of what goes into choosing type and percentages of different base stocks. The full formula is easy to go into and done to death around here. We need more details with in depth discussions.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: badtlc
...We need more details with in depth discussions.
Which means what?
...We need more details with in depth discussions.
Which means what?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: badtlc
...We need more details with in depth discussions.
Which means what?
If i knew, I wouldn't be asking. what is so complicated about the pros and cons of each potential base and benefits of mixing in different ratios? Surely something is more beneficial in cold, heat, under extreme load, etc.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
...We need more details with in depth discussions.
Which means what?
If i knew, I wouldn't be asking. what is so complicated about the pros and cons of each potential base and benefits of mixing in different ratios? Surely something is more beneficial in cold, heat, under extreme load, etc.
MolaKule
Staff member
As I have responded before, you are not going to get anything but general info about lubricants here because the processes used and the selection of base oils and additives in the formulation of lubricants is Intellectual Property:
http://www.aipla.org/about/iplaw/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.aipla.org/about/iplaw/Pages/default.aspx
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
As I have responded before, you are not going to get anything but general info about lubricants here because the processes used and the selection of base oils and additives in the formulation of lubricants is Intellectual Property:
http://www.aipla.org/about/iplaw/Pages/default.aspx
The general properties of base oil options are not intellectual properties. What something can do better than something else is not intellectual property.
As I have responded before, you are not going to get anything but general info about lubricants here because the processes used and the selection of base oils and additives in the formulation of lubricants is Intellectual Property:
http://www.aipla.org/about/iplaw/Pages/default.aspx
The general properties of base oil options are not intellectual properties. What something can do better than something else is not intellectual property.
I have tried Redline, Amsoil, Pennsoil, M1, Valvloine, Schaffers, Cenpeco, RoyalPurple,BG Synchro Shift and prob. a few more all in synthetic or semi-synetic form. If I listed conventional the list would go on even longer....
In MTL/MTF/Synchro Shift and ATF fluids Redline has consistently provided the very best cold shift performance I have ever experienced. They have also provided the longest cold shift performance. The second best was BG Synchro Shift.The worst cold shift performance I have ever had was with RoyalPurple SynchroMax.
In MTL/MTF/Synchro Shift and ATF fluids Redline has consistently provided the very best cold shift performance I have ever experienced. They have also provided the longest cold shift performance. The second best was BG Synchro Shift.The worst cold shift performance I have ever had was with RoyalPurple SynchroMax.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The general properties of base oil options are not intellectual properties. What something can do better than something else is not intellectual property.
Which ones are used, which viscosities are used, the ratios of each, and their applications are most certainly IP.
[quote = badtlc]I was looking for information on pros and cons of using either PAO or Esters in an MTF.[/quote]
The way this sentence is stated, you are wanting information on which basestocks to use in a formulation for an MTF.
Did you mean to actually convey something entirely different?
The general properties of base oil options are not intellectual properties. What something can do better than something else is not intellectual property.
Which ones are used, which viscosities are used, the ratios of each, and their applications are most certainly IP.
[quote = badtlc]I was looking for information on pros and cons of using either PAO or Esters in an MTF.[/quote]
The way this sentence is stated, you are wanting information on which basestocks to use in a formulation for an MTF.
Did you mean to actually convey something entirely different?
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