Good point.
Should new cars burn oil? C-R report
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
One of the most interesting trends I see is Subaru's. Did something major change between 2012 and 2013 with their engines? I know Subaru's oil consumption issues are discussed here periodically, but I'm not up to speed on the details. If they made engineering changes in 2013, it appears that they may have gotten traction on those...
They played around with the rings, I believe. But it's still happening ... just not as much.
One of the most interesting trends I see is Subaru's. Did something major change between 2012 and 2013 with their engines? I know Subaru's oil consumption issues are discussed here periodically, but I'm not up to speed on the details. If they made engineering changes in 2013, it appears that they may have gotten traction on those...
They played around with the rings, I believe. But it's still happening ... just not as much.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
To be more specific most of the engines on the list is German. You cannot say oil consumption is a European engines problem.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
To be more specific most of the engines on the list is German. You cannot say oil consumption is a European engines problem.
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
With the specified 10k OCI, you could be looking at 13 quarts used per interval. And the dealer would tell you that was 100% A-OK. I would lose it.
Do you REALLY think that? I don't.
What I think is that BMW knows some of their vehicles will be tracked, and tracked HARD. Under those conditions, yeah,
I feel pretty sure that if you took a BMW that was consistently burning a quart/1K mile in everyday street driving in to the dealer, they'd ask you some questions, take a look, and probably figure out what's wrong, given that you're not tracking the car. At least a dealer that wanted to stay in business would do that.
With the specified 10k OCI, you could be looking at 13 quarts used per interval. And the dealer would tell you that was 100% A-OK. I would lose it.
Do you REALLY think that? I don't.
What I think is that BMW knows some of their vehicles will be tracked, and tracked HARD. Under those conditions, yeah,
I feel pretty sure that if you took a BMW that was consistently burning a quart/1K mile in everyday street driving in to the dealer, they'd ask you some questions, take a look, and probably figure out what's wrong, given that you're not tracking the car. At least a dealer that wanted to stay in business would do that.
Originally Posted By: MobilinHyundia
Originally Posted By: chrisri
I feel bad for the German car industry. This report was probably final nail in the coffin for them. All those potential buyers of 5 and 7 series will be pushed towards Camry after they read this article.
Germans don't care about CR report!
They drive their cars, not like us driving like nannies.....
Like a few others said these models have much longer OCIs than most other Japanese, American, and Korean models, so it makes sense that a high percentage of them will need that top up. Also the European culture focuses on doing regular maintenance and paying attention to your vehicle unlike the US where they consider a car like a
fridge, where you use it and forget it.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
I feel bad for the German car industry. This report was probably final nail in the coffin for them. All those potential buyers of 5 and 7 series will be pushed towards Camry after they read this article.
Germans don't care about CR report!
They drive their cars, not like us driving like nannies.....
Like a few others said these models have much longer OCIs than most other Japanese, American, and Korean models, so it makes sense that a high percentage of them will need that top up. Also the European culture focuses on doing regular maintenance and paying attention to your vehicle unlike the US where they consider a car like a
fridge, where you use it and forget it.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Some of you guys make it seem like every German car owner is The Stig or Sabine Schmitz, knowing every inch of their car and always hammering their perfect driving machine down the Autobahn, and the N.American driver being wusses and ignorant dumb Americans/Canadians who never check their oil or possibly even know how to pump gas in their lame wood-paneled station wagon.
I hope that was not me, wemay.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I hope that was not me, wemay.
LOL... not at all Pete.
I hope that was not me, wemay.
LOL... not at all Pete.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
With the specified 10k OCI, you could be looking at 13 quarts used per interval. And the dealer would tell you that was 100% A-OK. I would lose it.
Do you REALLY think that? I don't.
What I think is that BMW knows some of their vehicles will be tracked, and tracked HARD. Under those conditions, yeah,
I feel pretty sure that if you took a BMW that was consistently burning a quart/1K mile in everyday street driving in to the dealer, they'd ask you some questions, take a look, and probably figure out what's wrong, given that you're not tracking the car. At least a dealer that wanted to stay in business would do that.
I'm just using the numbers supplied by BMW. And dealers rarely behave in a fashion that suggests they want to stay in business.
Originally Posted By: BowNisPar
With the specified 10k OCI, you could be looking at 13 quarts used per interval. And the dealer would tell you that was 100% A-OK. I would lose it.
Do you REALLY think that? I don't.
What I think is that BMW knows some of their vehicles will be tracked, and tracked HARD. Under those conditions, yeah,
I feel pretty sure that if you took a BMW that was consistently burning a quart/1K mile in everyday street driving in to the dealer, they'd ask you some questions, take a look, and probably figure out what's wrong, given that you're not tracking the car. At least a dealer that wanted to stay in business would do that.
I'm just using the numbers supplied by BMW. And dealers rarely behave in a fashion that suggests they want to stay in business.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
1) CR are, of course and as always, idiots.
2) Note that the "high consuming" engines tend to be european and performance-oriented. Nature of the beast- looser ring tensions for higher performance + heavier spec'd oils = higher consumption.
Adding a quart between changes shouldn't scare or worry anyone who is running a performance-oriented engine, older big-bore v8, etc. Know the engineering trade-offs before getting all worked up. An economy-oriented v6 that burns a quart between changes and only has a 4-quart sump is something worthy of a lot more worry than a performance-oriented engine with a 7+ quart sump.
My Magnum burned no oil. It used about a quart and a half in the first 2000 miles, then NOTHING in the next 85K! My Cherokee used less than half a PINT in 5000 miles, with 220,000 miles. Even my wife's rip-roaring Grand National uses no oil.
1) CR are, of course and as always, idiots.
2) Note that the "high consuming" engines tend to be european and performance-oriented. Nature of the beast- looser ring tensions for higher performance + heavier spec'd oils = higher consumption.
Adding a quart between changes shouldn't scare or worry anyone who is running a performance-oriented engine, older big-bore v8, etc. Know the engineering trade-offs before getting all worked up. An economy-oriented v6 that burns a quart between changes and only has a 4-quart sump is something worthy of a lot more worry than a performance-oriented engine with a 7+ quart sump.
My Magnum burned no oil. It used about a quart and a half in the first 2000 miles, then NOTHING in the next 85K! My Cherokee used less than half a PINT in 5000 miles, with 220,000 miles. Even my wife's rip-roaring Grand National uses no oil.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
I drove plenty of Ford Modulars (many over 250,000 miles and some over 350K) that ran 5W-30 and didn't burn oil. My Magnum used 5W-20 and used no oil. A properly-designed and assembled engine does not burn oil!
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
I drove plenty of Ford Modulars (many over 250,000 miles and some over 350K) that ran 5W-30 and didn't burn oil. My Magnum used 5W-20 and used no oil. A properly-designed and assembled engine does not burn oil!
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'd rather have the forged pistons and use more oil. We have a fundamental lack of understanding on this forum.
Nowhere on the planet will you find a group that is so ocd about oil consumption.
You have cast pistons which are the weakest which expand the least. You can run a tighter skirt clearance. The next level is hypereutectic pistons which is stronger but expands more. The strongest piston is forged but expands the most and the loosest side clearance 4-6 thousand's.
I'd settle for more oil consumption with a stronger rotating assembly.
For probably 95% of the vehicles on the road, cast pistons are fine. And note that PLENTY of engines with forged pistons are not oil guzzlers!
I'd rather have the forged pistons and use more oil. We have a fundamental lack of understanding on this forum.
Nowhere on the planet will you find a group that is so ocd about oil consumption.
You have cast pistons which are the weakest which expand the least. You can run a tighter skirt clearance. The next level is hypereutectic pistons which is stronger but expands more. The strongest piston is forged but expands the most and the loosest side clearance 4-6 thousand's.
I'd settle for more oil consumption with a stronger rotating assembly.
For probably 95% of the vehicles on the road, cast pistons are fine. And note that PLENTY of engines with forged pistons are not oil guzzlers!
You have to wonder how many of these engines that "don't use any oil" are getting cylinder wall lubrication.
I guess many of you have exceeded the capabilities of Chief Engineer Scott and have indeed found a way to change the laws of physics.
I guess many of you have exceeded the capabilities of Chief Engineer Scott and have indeed found a way to change the laws of physics.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
Yes, Subaru is a thin oil engine. Germans are higway, sorry, Autobahn speed engines. Both are consumption causes. Ford Yota and Honda of America are granny driven engines
.
Just kidding.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
Yes, Subaru is a thin oil engine. Germans are higway, sorry, Autobahn speed engines. Both are consumption causes. Ford Yota and Honda of America are granny driven engines
Just kidding.
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Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I noticed that too. In fact, not one Honda or Toyota is on the list as shown.
Kind of baffling, given that there are known years of oil-burning Corolla's and Camry's (fortunately mine is not among them). CR bias? Naaahhh....
The date range is 2010 to 2014. Do the Corollas or Camrys burn oil in those years burn oil?
Not that I am aware of. Those ought to be "good years".
I'm not sure if CR would recommend their readers flip their cars every ten years, but I suspect most of their readers probably do. Thus the worst of the lot, the truly bad Toyotas, are long gone from their view.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I noticed that too. In fact, not one Honda or Toyota is on the list as shown.
Kind of baffling, given that there are known years of oil-burning Corolla's and Camry's (fortunately mine is not among them). CR bias? Naaahhh....
The date range is 2010 to 2014. Do the Corollas or Camrys burn oil in those years burn oil?
Not that I am aware of. Those ought to be "good years".
I'm not sure if CR would recommend their readers flip their cars every ten years, but I suspect most of their readers probably do. Thus the worst of the lot, the truly bad Toyotas, are long gone from their view.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'd rather have the forged pistons and use more oil. We have a fundamental lack of understanding on this forum.
Nowhere on the planet will you find a group that is so ocd about oil consumption.
You have cast pistons which are the weakest which expand the least. You can run a tighter skirt clearance. The next level is hypereutectic pistons which is stronger but expands more. The strongest piston is forged but expands the most and the loosest side clearance 4-6 thousand's.
I'd settle for more oil consumption with a stronger rotating assembly.
For probably 95% of the vehicles on the road, cast pistons are fine. And note that PLENTY of engines with forged pistons are not oil guzzlers!
Empirically speaking, I would agree. I do not hear of people shattering pistons on a regular basis. If anything, low expansion pistons are best, what with many cold starts and general gentle "stuck in traffic" driving. Even high speed driving is gentle, revs are hardly elevated once in top gear.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'd rather have the forged pistons and use more oil. We have a fundamental lack of understanding on this forum.
Nowhere on the planet will you find a group that is so ocd about oil consumption.
You have cast pistons which are the weakest which expand the least. You can run a tighter skirt clearance. The next level is hypereutectic pistons which is stronger but expands more. The strongest piston is forged but expands the most and the loosest side clearance 4-6 thousand's.
I'd settle for more oil consumption with a stronger rotating assembly.
For probably 95% of the vehicles on the road, cast pistons are fine. And note that PLENTY of engines with forged pistons are not oil guzzlers!
Empirically speaking, I would agree. I do not hear of people shattering pistons on a regular basis. If anything, low expansion pistons are best, what with many cold starts and general gentle "stuck in traffic" driving. Even high speed driving is gentle, revs are hardly elevated once in top gear.
If this article proves anything, it must be that car owners driving German and Subaru cars apparently check their oil level.
Others simply keep on driving and have no clue what's the oil level.
Others simply keep on driving and have no clue what's the oil level.
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Completely false assertions about how forged pistons equal oil loss!
I would change where I got my machine work done immediately. My Family has a third gen machinist who is very successful in the Central Florida Hot Rod scene building megabucks motors all the time.
Guess what? They don't all use oil. I own two engines with forged rotating assemblies and only the supercharged one will use any visible amounts of oil at all, and very little at that...
I would change where I got my machine work done immediately. My Family has a third gen machinist who is very successful in the Central Florida Hot Rod scene building megabucks motors all the time.
Guess what? They don't all use oil. I own two engines with forged rotating assemblies and only the supercharged one will use any visible amounts of oil at all, and very little at that...
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
Yes, Subaru is a thin oil engine. Germans are higway, sorry, Autobahn speed engines. Both are consumption causes. Ford Yota and Honda of America are granny driven engines
.
Just kidding.
I would like to know....
1) How many HP/Liter would have avarage American car from that list ( we can start with Chervolet Spark
)
2) How many liters/quarts of oil goes in avarage American oil pan? Here in EU around 3-7 liters....depends on how big engine is (its displacement)
3) Do American car sellers (BMW AUDI....) use ACEA certified oils or Murricans substitutes....?
4) Do you even know LL intervals there ( OCI on 30-50.000kms)?
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Again, using thinner oils, you exchange fuel burning, for more oil burning. That's not very smart, IMO. New car specs what? 0w20.
Look at that list again, you have it backwards. The engines that are reported as burning more oil are European, mostly specifying thicker oils. The thin-oil engines (US and Japan) aren't on the list for the most part.
Yes, Subaru is a thin oil engine. Germans are higway, sorry, Autobahn speed engines. Both are consumption causes. Ford Yota and Honda of America are granny driven engines
Just kidding.
I would like to know....
1) How many HP/Liter would have avarage American car from that list ( we can start with Chervolet Spark
2) How many liters/quarts of oil goes in avarage American oil pan? Here in EU around 3-7 liters....depends on how big engine is (its displacement)
3) Do American car sellers (BMW AUDI....) use ACEA certified oils or Murricans substitutes....?
4) Do you even know LL intervals there ( OCI on 30-50.000kms)?
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