Opinion of piston driven AR's? Are they worth it over a direct impingement AR? Some say it's a fix to a problem that never existed? Others say the problem with traditional AR's is they poop where they eat and that is a big issue?
Piston driven AR's
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The M4 carbine, by design is REQUIRED by contract to have at least 600 mean rounds between stoppages (MRBS), meaning the gun can only jam every 600 rounds. In current govt testing, the gun actually goes about 3600 MRBS. They have continuously improved the platform over the years which has increased it's reliability. Recently, the Army tested several new carbines against the M4 to study the feasibility of replacing the M4 with a new weapon.
They fired 60,000 rounds through each platform and counted stoppages:
XM8:127 stoppages
Scar 16: 226 stoppages
HK416: 233 stoppages
M4: 882 stoppages
The other piston rifles tested were four to seven times more reliable than the Army's current M4. Piston rifles, on average, are more reliable than the direct impingement M4.
Now with that being said, the standard AR platform is exceptionally reliable as is, and has standard parts that you can find ANYWHERE. I personally don't see the need to own a piston AR as my guns are used for recreational shooting and home defense. They are always kept clean and lubricated. I will not be sending thousands of rounds down range in a combat scenario. The standard AR will serve you fine.
They fired 60,000 rounds through each platform and counted stoppages:
XM8:127 stoppages
Scar 16: 226 stoppages
HK416: 233 stoppages
M4: 882 stoppages
The other piston rifles tested were four to seven times more reliable than the Army's current M4. Piston rifles, on average, are more reliable than the direct impingement M4.
Now with that being said, the standard AR platform is exceptionally reliable as is, and has standard parts that you can find ANYWHERE. I personally don't see the need to own a piston AR as my guns are used for recreational shooting and home defense. They are always kept clean and lubricated. I will not be sending thousands of rounds down range in a combat scenario. The standard AR will serve you fine.
I previously owned 3 AR's & just aquired a new one...
1) Bushmaster AR-15 (A2 style) during the ban circa 2003; direct impingment; fussy on ammo & a [censored] to clean...replaced with a Ruger Mini-14
2) DPMS AR-15 (M-4 style) circa 2008; direct impingment; shot horribly to the left @ 25 yards...seems the front sight/gas tube wasn't done right; replaced with a new upper & replaced with a Ruger Mini-14
3) Stag AR-15 (M-4 style) circa 2010; direct impingment; shot horribly to the right @ 25 yards...another gas block issue; sold it...glad I kept the 2nd Mini-14
4) Ruger AR-556 (M-4 style) replacement for the Mini-14 after selling it to pay bills last year; hoping it does well since this is my LAST opportunity to have a 5.56/.223 platform (and amazingly they are less expensive that a new Mini-14)
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
1) Bushmaster AR-15 (A2 style) during the ban circa 2003; direct impingment; fussy on ammo & a [censored] to clean...replaced with a Ruger Mini-14
2) DPMS AR-15 (M-4 style) circa 2008; direct impingment; shot horribly to the left @ 25 yards...seems the front sight/gas tube wasn't done right; replaced with a new upper & replaced with a Ruger Mini-14
3) Stag AR-15 (M-4 style) circa 2010; direct impingment; shot horribly to the right @ 25 yards...another gas block issue; sold it...glad I kept the 2nd Mini-14
4) Ruger AR-556 (M-4 style) replacement for the Mini-14 after selling it to pay bills last year; hoping it does well since this is my LAST opportunity to have a 5.56/.223 platform (and amazingly they are less expensive that a new Mini-14)
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
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Own and shoot both. The piston AR's have their advantages, no doubt. The older I get the more I appreciate them, because the less I like to clean guns. There is NO comparison. A piston AR runs A LOT cleaner.
Well the problem with some of the piston driven AR's is that they try to use as much off the shelf parts from a direct impingement gun as possible. Therefore, some of the parts just don't like to work well and you get issues such as carrier tilt.
If you are just using it as a home protection gun or to kill paper targets, I see no reason to go all exotic on a piston driven AR that has proprietary parts. If that company drops the model or goes under you are going to be left with an orphan gun. If your company stops making a direct impingement gun, you can still keep it running easily by using other manufacturer's parts.
If you are just using it as a home protection gun or to kill paper targets, I see no reason to go all exotic on a piston driven AR that has proprietary parts. If that company drops the model or goes under you are going to be left with an orphan gun. If your company stops making a direct impingement gun, you can still keep it running easily by using other manufacturer's parts.
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Originally Posted By: CT8
Keep the bolt well lubed and a DI AR will run and run. The AR doesn't need to be clean to run well just well lubed. Take the $$$ for the Piston kit and buy ammo .
Absolutely, 100% correct. The gun can, and will, run when absolutely filthy. Generously lube the platform, and they run and run and run.
Keep the bolt well lubed and a DI AR will run and run. The AR doesn't need to be clean to run well just well lubed. Take the $$$ for the Piston kit and buy ammo .
Absolutely, 100% correct. The gun can, and will, run when absolutely filthy. Generously lube the platform, and they run and run and run.
It will run filthy with the crud it shoots back into the receiver, but it will not like to run well if you get mud or sand in it. But of course, most guns won't.
I have three rifles in my safe I know I can bet my life on. One is my Colt AR, the others are my Kalashnikov and my FAL.
I have three rifles in my safe I know I can bet my life on. One is my Colt AR, the others are my Kalashnikov and my FAL.
The DI guns run fine as long as they are wet and fed with good mags.
I volunteer at our local pre-match safety walk-thru (before our local rifle match) and see mostly DI ARs. Most work fine just as the owners bring them out. The ones that don't work typically are dry and function fine once the bolt and bolt carrier are lubed.
The ones that aren't fixed by oiling are usually mag related, with USGI aluminum mags being the worst offender.
OTOH, for the price of a piston AR you could get a Beretta ARX, which was designed around a fixed piston/moving cylinder gas system instead of being a kludge.
BSW
I volunteer at our local pre-match safety walk-thru (before our local rifle match) and see mostly DI ARs. Most work fine just as the owners bring them out. The ones that don't work typically are dry and function fine once the bolt and bolt carrier are lubed.
The ones that aren't fixed by oiling are usually mag related, with USGI aluminum mags being the worst offender.
OTOH, for the price of a piston AR you could get a Beretta ARX, which was designed around a fixed piston/moving cylinder gas system instead of being a kludge.
BSW
Only function complaints my gunsmith has relayed were some odd upper receiver wear on one piston AR with about 4K rounds through it. He has also had problems finding replacement small parts for some models.
IMHO, if you are contemplating any sort of SHTF usage, stick with a DI system.
IMHO, if you are contemplating any sort of SHTF usage, stick with a DI system.
The odd upper receiver wear is likely carrier tilt. It causes uneven wear on the upper.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: CT8
Keep the bolt well lubed and a DI AR will run and run. The AR doesn't need to be clean to run well just well lubed. Take the $$$ for the Piston kit and buy ammo .
Absolutely, 100% correct. The gun can, and will, run when absolutely filthy. Generously lube the platform, and they run and run and run.
This. I've been a dual certified AR instructor for years. Keep it wet, it keeps running, even with vagisil. My personal rifle has been through nearly 8,000 rounds without a stoppage. I'd worry more about whether your bolt and cam pin is made to spec than piston vs. DI. Your bolt WILL fail, no question other than when. I'd also worry more about the extractor tension setup. If you don't believe me, chat up Ned Christiansen and Patrick Sweeney. They can tell you more than I care to type. They know their feces with the platform.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Keep the bolt well lubed and a DI AR will run and run. The AR doesn't need to be clean to run well just well lubed. Take the $$$ for the Piston kit and buy ammo .
Absolutely, 100% correct. The gun can, and will, run when absolutely filthy. Generously lube the platform, and they run and run and run.
This. I've been a dual certified AR instructor for years. Keep it wet, it keeps running, even with vagisil. My personal rifle has been through nearly 8,000 rounds without a stoppage. I'd worry more about whether your bolt and cam pin is made to spec than piston vs. DI. Your bolt WILL fail, no question other than when. I'd also worry more about the extractor tension setup. If you don't believe me, chat up Ned Christiansen and Patrick Sweeney. They can tell you more than I care to type. They know their feces with the platform.
Why are piston driven ARs more expensive, I have ZERO idea. Because the people that make piston driven ARs want to make a LOT of money.
The AK, SKS, Mini-14, FAL, M1A, etc. are all piston driven rifles. I have 5 SKSs, an AK, and a Mini-14(all piston driven) and they run very well.
The AK and Mini-14 are both fixed piston and therefore fewer moving parts, the SKS is a movable piston and more complex.
After 50+ years I am sure the AR makers have gotten DI down pat.
The AK, SKS, Mini-14, FAL, M1A, etc. are all piston driven rifles. I have 5 SKSs, an AK, and a Mini-14(all piston driven) and they run very well.
The AK and Mini-14 are both fixed piston and therefore fewer moving parts, the SKS is a movable piston and more complex.
After 50+ years I am sure the AR makers have gotten DI down pat.
Originally Posted By: kmrcstintn
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
I hit mine with brake cleaner every couple years whether they need it or not. Takes like 5 minutes.
direct gas impingment systems require more frequent cleanings than piston systems, but cost less and are the mainstream of the AR-15 markets; as far as cleaning goes...if you have time to shoot it then make time to clean it afterward!
I hit mine with brake cleaner every couple years whether they need it or not. Takes like 5 minutes.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Why are piston driven ARs more expensive, I have ZERO idea. Because the people that make piston driven ARs want to make a LOT of money.
The AK, SKS, Mini-14, FAL, M1A, etc. are all piston driven rifles. I have 5 SKSs, an AK, and a Mini-14(all piston driven) and they run very well.
The AK and Mini-14 are both fixed piston and therefore fewer moving parts, the SKS is a movable piston and more complex.
After 50+ years I am sure the AR makers have gotten DI down pat.
Huh?
Both are long stroke systems, but the AK has a moving piston/stationary cylinder where the Mini has a stationary piston and moving cylinder.
The AK was designed to be robust, simple to use and maintain, and easy to manufacture using common technology (and lots of hand fitting) while using no strategic materials like aluminum or high alloy steels*.
Labor was a low cost when AKs were being cranked out so hand fitting was't a problem.
BSW
*The Sov wanted to save aluminum and the good steel for missiles and airplanes.
Why are piston driven ARs more expensive, I have ZERO idea. Because the people that make piston driven ARs want to make a LOT of money.
The AK, SKS, Mini-14, FAL, M1A, etc. are all piston driven rifles. I have 5 SKSs, an AK, and a Mini-14(all piston driven) and they run very well.
The AK and Mini-14 are both fixed piston and therefore fewer moving parts, the SKS is a movable piston and more complex.
After 50+ years I am sure the AR makers have gotten DI down pat.
Huh?
Both are long stroke systems, but the AK has a moving piston/stationary cylinder where the Mini has a stationary piston and moving cylinder.
The AK was designed to be robust, simple to use and maintain, and easy to manufacture using common technology (and lots of hand fitting) while using no strategic materials like aluminum or high alloy steels*.
Labor was a low cost when AKs were being cranked out so hand fitting was't a problem.
BSW
*The Sov wanted to save aluminum and the good steel for missiles and airplanes.
2 LWRC piston weapons. Over 10,000 rounds down the pipe of both. Zero "carrier tilt". This is yet again a phrase the Internet commandos have grabbed and run with. Same with how "complex" they are. An AK-47 is piston driven. It is without question one of the simplest, most reliable combat weapons ever designed.
Originally Posted By: billt460
2 LWRC piston weapons. Over 10,000 rounds down the pipe of both. Zero "carrier tilt". This is yet again a phrase the Internet commandos have grabbed and run with. Same with how "complex" they are. An AK-47 is piston driven. It is without question one of the simplest, most reliable combat weapons ever designed.
Not all piston driven AR's are built the same as there is no standard design. Because there are many proprietary systems out there, some do suffer carrier tilt. Just because yours have not, does not mean other designs are immune to it also.
2 LWRC piston weapons. Over 10,000 rounds down the pipe of both. Zero "carrier tilt". This is yet again a phrase the Internet commandos have grabbed and run with. Same with how "complex" they are. An AK-47 is piston driven. It is without question one of the simplest, most reliable combat weapons ever designed.
Not all piston driven AR's are built the same as there is no standard design. Because there are many proprietary systems out there, some do suffer carrier tilt. Just because yours have not, does not mean other designs are immune to it also.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Not all piston driven AR's are built the same as there is no standard design. Because there are many proprietary systems out there, some do suffer carrier tilt. Just because yours have not, does not mean other designs are immune to it also.
Purchasing a piston driven AR-15 rifle is no different that buying any other piece of machinery. It is up to the buyer to do their own research. Carrier tilt has been resolved on most all piston driven AR's being manufactured today. But it still lives on, being continually perpetuated by the anti piston AR fanatics. At $7.00 a box for .223 / 5.56 MM, how many shooters are going to shoot enough to realistically produce the problem to begin with? Most likely not 2% if that. And that is only assuming you have an AR that developes the problem to begin with.
Not all piston driven AR's are built the same as there is no standard design. Because there are many proprietary systems out there, some do suffer carrier tilt. Just because yours have not, does not mean other designs are immune to it also.
Purchasing a piston driven AR-15 rifle is no different that buying any other piece of machinery. It is up to the buyer to do their own research. Carrier tilt has been resolved on most all piston driven AR's being manufactured today. But it still lives on, being continually perpetuated by the anti piston AR fanatics. At $7.00 a box for .223 / 5.56 MM, how many shooters are going to shoot enough to realistically produce the problem to begin with? Most likely not 2% if that. And that is only assuming you have an AR that developes the problem to begin with.
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