OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: car51
Thanks OVERKILL, I'll keep you updated
Please do!
Thanks OVERKILL, I'll keep you updated
Please do!
Cadillac 472/500 engine build, oil choice ??'s
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
Typed that verbatum into Google, and got
"About 235,000 results (0.59 seconds)"
Your are out by a factor of 4255, which is pretty close considering.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
Typed that verbatum into Google, and got
"About 235,000 results (0.59 seconds)"
Your are out by a factor of 4255, which is pretty close considering.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
Typed that verbatum into Google, and got
"About 235,000 results (0.59 seconds)"
Your are out by a factor of 4255, which is pretty close considering.
LOL!
I put in flat lifter failure and got
"About 421,000 results (0.37 seconds)"
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
no issues with the cam or lifters.
Good for you. Search on roller lifter failure. You'll get about a billion hits.
Typed that verbatum into Google, and got
"About 235,000 results (0.59 seconds)"
Your are out by a factor of 4255, which is pretty close considering.
LOL!
I put in flat lifter failure and got
"About 421,000 results (0.37 seconds)"
Look at the images. They're all aftermarket bar pinned lifters. There's a reason why OEM's didn't use these things.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Look at the images. They're all aftermarket bar pinned lifters. There's a reason why OEM's didn't use these things.
Aftermarket lifters in general have a higher failure rate than OEM. That's why I'm still running my 200+ thousand mile OEM roller lifters.
This also goes for camshafts, particularly the flat tappet ones, some of which have suffered from improper hardening and the use of cheap cores. IIRC, once the OEM's got out of the flat tappet business, core quality went down significantly as that business for the manufacturers dried up.
The cam in my SBF was ground for Jay Allen, of former Camshaft Innovations fame. The one that's using the Link-bars that was in the '85, then moved to the '88, was also a CI grind. Jay recommended a particular link-bar lifter, which was what we went with.
What I find amazing is that I don't ever recall hearing of many these failures when I was hard into the SBF scene. I don't recall there ever being more than one or two threads about it, despite lots of guys using them. So my question is whether this failure model is more engine dependant than the fact that a particular style of lifter is being used.
This thread has some pics of what happens when the dog bones on the OEM setup break:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1377930-stock-lifters-vs-link-bar-lifters.html
Which is a potential issue if you run too much lift and why Jay always advised .550 as the limit for the OEM lifters (which my cam is close to bang-on at).
Look at the images. They're all aftermarket bar pinned lifters. There's a reason why OEM's didn't use these things.
Aftermarket lifters in general have a higher failure rate than OEM. That's why I'm still running my 200+ thousand mile OEM roller lifters.
This also goes for camshafts, particularly the flat tappet ones, some of which have suffered from improper hardening and the use of cheap cores. IIRC, once the OEM's got out of the flat tappet business, core quality went down significantly as that business for the manufacturers dried up.
The cam in my SBF was ground for Jay Allen, of former Camshaft Innovations fame. The one that's using the Link-bars that was in the '85, then moved to the '88, was also a CI grind. Jay recommended a particular link-bar lifter, which was what we went with.
What I find amazing is that I don't ever recall hearing of many these failures when I was hard into the SBF scene. I don't recall there ever being more than one or two threads about it, despite lots of guys using them. So my question is whether this failure model is more engine dependant than the fact that a particular style of lifter is being used.
This thread has some pics of what happens when the dog bones on the OEM setup break:
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1377930-stock-lifters-vs-link-bar-lifters.html
Which is a potential issue if you run too much lift and why Jay always advised .550 as the limit for the OEM lifters (which my cam is close to bang-on at).
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
BTW, you might enjoy this thread:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494934
Cheap hydraulic link bar lifters run with springs designed for a solid roller (220lbs on the seat). His initial thought was the bar failed. Much later in the thread after he tears it down he finds another one cracked. The springs were FAR too heavy for the lifters and the lifters were aftermarket garbage.
There are some very good link-bar lifters out there. But there are a lot of bad ones too. Hence my earlier point about the OEM lifters (and cam cores). Ed Curtis (a man of great repute in the camshaft scene) chimes in a few times and condemns the lifters used as cheap garbage, LOL!
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494934
Cheap hydraulic link bar lifters run with springs designed for a solid roller (220lbs on the seat). His initial thought was the bar failed. Much later in the thread after he tears it down he finds another one cracked. The springs were FAR too heavy for the lifters and the lifters were aftermarket garbage.
There are some very good link-bar lifters out there. But there are a lot of bad ones too. Hence my earlier point about the OEM lifters (and cam cores). Ed Curtis (a man of great repute in the camshaft scene) chimes in a few times and condemns the lifters used as cheap garbage, LOL!
A flat tappet will be far more unlikely to catastrophically fail like all the picts you see of rollers. Its basically a slug of metal with a simple plunger inside vs a wheel with roller bearings pins complex machining and such. This is a case where simpler is better.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
A flat tappet will be far more unlikely to catastrophically fail like all the picts you see of rollers. Its basically a slug of metal with a simple plunger inside vs a wheel with roller bearings pins complex machining and such. This is a case where simpler is better.
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters. The OEM ones in both Ford, GM and Mopar applications (pushrod) seem to last basically forever with the benefit of zero cam wear.
I think we've all seen flat tappet failures too (sheared off lobes, chunks out of lobes, seized lifters....etc). Often times, be it roller or flat tappet, it isn't necessarily the lifter itself that fails but something else and this is almost always in a performance build like the one I linked to where not only were the lifters junk but the wrong springs were used
A flat tappet will be far more unlikely to catastrophically fail like all the picts you see of rollers. Its basically a slug of metal with a simple plunger inside vs a wheel with roller bearings pins complex machining and such. This is a case where simpler is better.
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters. The OEM ones in both Ford, GM and Mopar applications (pushrod) seem to last basically forever with the benefit of zero cam wear.
I think we've all seen flat tappet failures too (sheared off lobes, chunks out of lobes, seized lifters....etc). Often times, be it roller or flat tappet, it isn't necessarily the lifter itself that fails but something else and this is almost always in a performance build like the one I linked to where not only were the lifters junk but the wrong springs were used
Hey even NASCAR have switched to roller cams and there haven't been that many failures. Well no more than last year really.
The failures when the oems are used on Higher performance cams and the higher spring pressures . Some company makes a roller cam with a bushing instead of roller bearings though I don't know if it is a reliability improvement or just something to help empty the pocket book.
If you must use a 50 grade, strongly consider Mobil 1 15w50 and not a mineral based 20w50. The Mobil can be found at some Walmart stores for the $25/5 quart
It would be almost impossible to dream up
a camshaft spec without knowing the compression
ratio, torque converter stall and rpm range
just to name a few.
What I do know, is that the Cadillac camshaft's
base circle is very small.
Because of that, putting a high lift flat tappet
lobe, whether hydraulic or mechanical is iffy.
Save your Caddy cam cores.
Personally, I would put the biggest hyd lobe of
about .340" on the stock cam, and leave the
lobe separation alone at 116, or whatever it is.
[email protected]/116 ICL@114/ECL@118 sounds about right
to me for 11.5:1 with a 4,000 stall, 5,800 shift.
.050 timing, lets see...264X.5-114=18/66 for the intake,
70/14 for the exhaust.
a camshaft spec without knowing the compression
ratio, torque converter stall and rpm range
just to name a few.
What I do know, is that the Cadillac camshaft's
base circle is very small.
Because of that, putting a high lift flat tappet
lobe, whether hydraulic or mechanical is iffy.
Save your Caddy cam cores.
Personally, I would put the biggest hyd lobe of
about .340" on the stock cam, and leave the
lobe separation alone at 116, or whatever it is.
[email protected]/116 ICL@114/ECL@118 sounds about right
to me for 11.5:1 with a 4,000 stall, 5,800 shift.
.050 timing, lets see...264X.5-114=18/66 for the intake,
70/14 for the exhaust.
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
Some of those threads showed some real garbage lifters too BTW. Cast bodies and Chineseum quality.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
Some of those threads showed some real garbage lifters too BTW. Cast bodies and Chineseum quality.
That's the thing. Really good ones are 2 grand.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
That's the thing. Really good ones are 2 grand.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
Some of those threads showed some real garbage lifters too BTW. Cast bodies and Chineseum quality.
That's the thing. Really good ones are 2 grand.
We got good ones for (a lot) less than that, but that was for an SBF. The ones I posted earlier in the thread appear to be good quality as well, but options are extremely limited in this application.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From a simplicity standpoint, I agree. However, from a durability standpoint, despite the roller being more complex, they have proven, at least in OEM use, to be more durable than flat tappet lifters.
Well yea. I've been saying that all along. Aftermarket is where the problems are. I just saw an ad by comp in speedway promising better rollers at a reasonable price. If that ain't an admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
LOL!!!
That's the thing. Really good ones are 2 grand.
We got good ones for (a lot) less than that, but that was for an SBF. The ones I posted earlier in the thread appear to be good quality as well, but options are extremely limited in this application.
I used to build caddy engines to replace 350 diesel in chevy trucks. They heads do not flow well. You do not get high cylinder filling or high rpm horsepower unless you spend a lot on heads. You do get high torque. The oil system is rather small, so you need to raise pressure, shoot for about 80. For oil, a good 10W40 motorcycle oil has enough zinc to do a nice job. But there is a 10W40 Accel oil that is SF spec at Walmart for like $2.50 a quart that will do well also. They are great engines, you just are not going to be spinning one at 8K RPM
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The aftermarket roller stuff by its nature is more aggressive with much higher spring pressures. I used to hang out on the corvette forum a lot. Many of these guys running retrofits were wondering how many cruise-ins they could go to before having to replace lifters, like under 10k miles. The needle bearings in these things burn up, the bars wear out and allow a lifter to walk. They pit. All kinds of problems.
I've been running a retrofit hydraulic roller cam in my L98 Corvette track car since 2010. Many hours on track at high rpm, WOT, and HOT oil temperatures, and it's running fine.
The aftermarket roller stuff by its nature is more aggressive with much higher spring pressures. I used to hang out on the corvette forum a lot. Many of these guys running retrofits were wondering how many cruise-ins they could go to before having to replace lifters, like under 10k miles. The needle bearings in these things burn up, the bars wear out and allow a lifter to walk. They pit. All kinds of problems.
I've been running a retrofit hydraulic roller cam in my L98 Corvette track car since 2010. Many hours on track at high rpm, WOT, and HOT oil temperatures, and it's running fine.
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I'd go with one of those classic car formula oils,or maybe a dedicated racing oil. Pennzoil GT Racing 25W50 or Valvoline VR1 20W50.
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