Bypass Filter Recommendations Ecoboost Engine

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abs

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I'm looking for help in setting up a bypass system for a Ford Flex with the 3.5L twin turbo Ecoboost engine. I have a reman engine going in this week and could use input on which system, filters, etc. Are my best option. There is another thread in the forums discussing what happened to necessitate the new engine and asking for oil recommendations here:

Link

I'm posting this message specifically for insights regarding a bypass system. I've been researching some info on the Amsoil site and not sure if I should do a single bypass setup or a complete bypass setup including a full flow filter. I'm also not sure of other options beyond the Amsoil solution. Lastly, one concern I have with the bypass only option is that 10% of the oil flow will be siphoned off to the bypass filter and I'm not clear as to what impact this could have on the rest of the engine.

I really need some guidance from folks who are experts with this as I've never used a bypass setup before.
 
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With that money you could do 10 engine oil changes more in the life of your rebuilt engine. Would you save 10 oil changes in 250k miles just for using a bypass filter? Are you going to use full synthetics for 20+k miles?
 
I realize that in most cases the goal of using the bypass filter is to achieve long OCIs and save costs related to maintenance. In this case, my goal is about reducing wear at the timing chain and guides thereby preserving engine life. The additional cost of the bypass system and filters is negligable compared to a $6-7k hit for a reman engine + install. I can easily afford a $40 bypass filter every 10k miles if needed.

I have used full synthetics for decades and will continue to do so irrespective of whether I have the bypass setup or not.

Please help me to understand the pros and cons of the bypass setup. Money, within reason, is not an issue for me in this instance.
 
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Originally Posted By: abs
I realize that in most cases the goal of using the bypass filter is to achieve long OCIs and save costs related to maintenance. In this case, my goal is about reducing wear at the timing chain and guides thereby preserving engine life. The additional cost of the bypass system and filters is negligable compared to a $6-7k hit for a reman engine + install. I can easily afford a $40 bypass filter every 10k miles if needed.

I have used full synthetics for decades and will continue to do so irrespective of whether I have the bypass setup or not.

Please help me to understand the pros and cons of the bypass setup. Money, within reason, is not an issue for me in this instance.


I've installed an Amsoil Dual Gard on my 09 f350 to extend oil drains and reduce wear. Amsoil recommends up to 60,000 miles on the bypass filter or every year which ever comes first. I think the best thing is to check the bypass filter from time to time and make sure it's still flowing oil. I'm testing this myself to see if the bypass really improves extended oil drains or not. I'm also installing a PuraDyn Oil bypass on an older truck I own and see how it compares to the Amsoil system. I think it's really up to the individual for what system they use, but I think Amsoil wins in the convenience department as they sell the whole kit and is easy to install and use. As for the single bypass or remote with a single and full flow system, I think it's easier and cheaper to install the single and use your ford oem full flow. Here's a video I made of an Amsoil bypass on my Ford and a PuraDyn system:

Amsoil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_-W1zXxImc

PuraDyn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfkkhM7YJg
 
I reviewed your link to the thread about the engine woes.


You've used syns nearly the entire time; they did not alleviate the concern of timing-chain stretch, nor would I expect them to. Neither will bypass filtration avoid this. Neither lubes nor filters will preclude a poor design from wreaking havoc. If the design is poor, it's going to fail regardless of what you try to do in the lube circuit.

You're chasing stuff down the rabbit hole ...

I am curious; does the "new" engine have the "new" timing drive design? That is what is more likely to avoid a repeat issue.



As for the BP filter questions, I'll say this; they all work well enough to reduce particulate loading significantly. But, you're never going to see any definitive shift in any wear data that would allow you to prove or even claim one brand of filter is "better" than another in normal use.


Choose and use a BP filter based upon whatever makes you feel good, because that's about the only benefit you'll get from it.
 
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The chain doesn't stretch. Its wear. And, it can be measured on a disassembled chain and/or gears. I don't care for the misnomer "stretch" when its really wear.

Clean oil for wear protection is a good idea.

But, the main reason for a bypass is an extended oil change interval. If you forgo the extended intervals, do you really need it?

The increased oil capacity is a benefit. The Amsoil dual, which I don't care for, is probably the easiest to plumb.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/fi.../?code=BMK23-EA

If you want a real standalone bypass, the
Standalone info available here:
http://jackmasteroilfilters.com.au/bypass_oil_filters.html
http://www.frantzoil.com/catalog.html
http://www.frantzfilters.com/
http://www.kleenoilusa.com/index.php/products/kleenoil-products/kleenoil-bypass-filter-systems
http://www.trabold.net/English/
http://www.fs2500filter.com/brochure.htm
http://www.oilguard.com/eps-20-dp.html
http://www.generation2filtration.com/
http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/R...ucts_-_7460.pdf
http://www.ntzfilter.com/sect1d.asp

Another option is to skip the bypass, and just get a dual remote setup using 2 OE filters or whatever OE equivalent filters you want.
http://www.shop.perma-cool.com/72988-Deluxe-Oil-Filter-Relocation-Kit-dual-M22x15-72988.htm

Use the OE filter in parallel with a Trasko or Stilko, or use dual Traskos/Stilkos:
http://www.trasko-usa.com/faq/faq.htm
http://stilko.co.za/why.asp


Triggers(and ADBV) for standalone bypass:
http://www.amazon.com/Parker-Brass-Cracking-Pressure-Female/dp/B007I5TZQ0
http://www.amazon.com/Parker-Brass-Check-Cracking-Pressure/dp/B007I5U1X6
 
I concur; "stretch" is a poor description, as "wear" is more appropriate.

But "stretch" is the colloquial term used in the industry for the condition we speak of, despite it being inaccurate.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I concur; "stretch" is a poor description, as "wear" is more appropriate.

But "stretch" is the colloquial term used in the industry for the condition we speak of, despite it being inaccurate.
very well put Dave.

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
The increased oil capacity is a benefit.

Another option is to skip the bypass, and just get a dual remote setup using 2 OE filters or whatever OE equivalent filters you want.

Excellent point... but is an expensive bypass setup necessary to increase the oil capacity ?

Is there any lower cost option to increase oil capacity ?
 
Larger oil pan, larger oil filter, or a couple larger remotely mounted fullflow filters are ways to increase sump capacity.
 
I am not sure whether a bypass setup is a good idea in an ecoboost engine? Have you done a UOA first to check for fuel contamination?

If that is ok, then go for a dual remote if you have the room, the single remote if you have less room.

I have the dual remote installed now with just about 25,000km on the oil. I will do a UOA @25,000, and post the results thus far. If I wasn't a member on this forum I would have left the UOA until 35+k, but I thought I would post some data for members to see.

The total engine oil capacity is around 7.5qts for the K24 engine w/dual remote, plenty.
 
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It should just come down to a space utilization issue. The best system will be the one that fits and is easy to service.I only have installation experience with the Frantz units, and they are pretty small compared to the others. a Frantz will load up fairly quicky in your application, so I would go with Amsoil which will last longer.
I have to disagree with Newton, to me the evidence is pretty clear that timing chain wear will decrease substantially wih an effective bypass filter installed.
 
First things firs make sure the new engine is definitely the double roller timing chain. There is a reason y ford is changing to this. Next an Amsoil bypass filter kit will be best for this application. U have limited space, and filter are far easier to quickly change. Next use Amsoil 0w30 starting out. take some oil samples after motor is broke in and the go from there to see if the oil is holding up. Other oils in Amsoils signature series might hold up better to fuel dilution problems u might have to change to a different oil in the signature series to get the results u need. Putting a bypass filter on should make that chain last longer if everything was designed correctly in the first place....
 
In abs case, the bypass filter might make sense. Ford 3.5 EcoBoost, other Ford GDI engines along with Hyundia GDI engines have greater in cylinder soot issues than other engines. Need proof...look at the rear bumper above the exhaust pipe on a light colored Fusion, Sonota, Edge or Explorer.

What happens is the soot (carbon) clings to the cylinder walls and is diluted into the oil. The suspended carbon acts like an abrasive and prematurely wears the cam chain rollers, thus the problems. The other problem is with cam phasers on some of these engines where the suspended carbon wears the small passages in the phasers.

The oil lube companies have been working on this with additive packages similar to diesel oils where soot can be surrounded. My advice is anyone with a GDI to have a bypass filter and change oil on a regular basis. Also consider a synthetic than have the same viscosity and has a diesel approval.
 
Originally Posted By: GDubBlue
In abs case, the bypass filter might make sense. Ford 3.5 EcoBoost, other Ford GDI engines along with Hyundia GDI engines have greater in cylinder soot issues than other engines. Need proof...look at the rear bumper above the exhaust pipe on a light colored Fusion, Sonota, Edge or Explorer.

What happens is the soot (carbon) clings to the cylinder walls and is diluted into the oil. The suspended carbon acts like an abrasive and prematurely wears the cam chain rollers, thus the problems. The other problem is with cam phasers on some of these engines where the suspended carbon wears the small passages in the phasers.

The oil lube companies have been working on this with additive packages similar to diesel oils where soot can be surrounded. My advice is anyone with a GDI to have a bypass filter and change oil on a regular basis. Also consider a synthetic than have the same viscosity and has a diesel approval.



I am not aware of heavy soot in GDI. Fuel dilution perhaps, but the soot/insoluble counts I've seen in UOAs indicate there is no large issue as you suggest.

So you recommend a bypass, syn HDEO and normal OCIs?
Typical hype and rhetoric ...
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I am not aware of heavy soot in GDI. Fuel dilution perhaps, but the soot/insoluble counts I've seen in UOAs indicate there is no large issue as you suggest.


The soot in GDI tends to be small, but probably varies according to fuel atomization.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301679X15000432

Another tech summary (page 9) shows very small, < 1 micron, soot particles in GDI engines.
http://www.swri.org/3pubs/ttoday/Summer11/PDFs/ParticleEmissions.pdf

Oak Ridge National Labs sees GDI soot as having particles as large as 5 microns across, although thats not a high percentage of all the soot particles generated.
http://articles.sae.org/13624/

Based on all that, a dual rated diesel-gasoline motor oil should disperse GDI soot better. Since agglomeration can occur, particle sizes could be high enough to get caught in a bypass oil filter. Good dispersal means agglomeration is minimized though.
 
Nearly all soot starts out sub-micronic. I agree with that.

I also agree that the add-pack (anti-agglomerates specifically) will help disperse and control the soot. Only when that portion of the add-pack is overwhelmed will concerns begin to become real. Hence, in normal OCI duration it is NOT the filtration that is controlling soot, but the additives.

No BP filter we can commercially buy and install is going to have any true effect on wear control via the soot control at the front end of OCIs. The filter cannot filter out what is not yet large enough to be caught .... Most any BP filter is really only truly effective down to around 2-3um. I've seen no evidence that they are "absolute" down below this range. There are claims that abound that BP filters of various brands can filter "down to" 1um or a bit lower, but their efficiency at that range is very, very poor. The reality is that most BP elements are going to be very effective around 2-3um and above. Not below. Not where soot spends most of it's time in relation to the control of the add-pack.

Some amount of filtration is very important. The FF filters do a good job of controlling large debris in the main stream; they see 100% of the flow. But BP filters ONLY get to see about 10% of the total flow, so the effect they provide is often very misunderstood. For a particle (soot or otherwise) to be caught, one of two things has to be true:
1) it is large enough to be caught in the FF, typically 15-20um or larger
2) it is lucky enough to be sent to the BP filter (on a ratio of 1:10), AND be at least 2um
Even a particle that is 5-10um in size only has a one-in-ten chance to go to the BP filter, which means that it is 90% likely to head to the engine as if the BP filter never existed in the system in the first place.

Further, the nature of a syn (PAO or group III) it not, in itself, able to deal with soot any better than a conventional lube. Syns are not magic. PAOs actually don't hold additives as well as conventional lubes; they have to be modified to hold additives well. A syn is no more able to control soot than a well fortified dino lube. The ability to control soot is a matter of the add-pack, not the lube base stock. Therefore using a syn here isn't really going to have any huge benefit. You could have a nearly-equal ability to control soot in either a dino, semi or full syn; it's a matter of the additives. So suggesting a syn here is false logic.



My objection is to the recommendation I quoted above. Whereas I do agree the BP filtration and syns are great tools, they are NOT a one-size-fits-all answer for everything. BP filters excel when the OCIs are greatly extended. That is because in very long OCIs, the add-pack begins to become overwhelmed and BP filter can help out. But not until that conditions exists.

The quote I took exception with contains conditions that are not likely to happen; short OCIs (syn or otherwise) are not going to see any large quantity of soot of any size that a BP filter can contain. He recommended syns, short OCIs and BP filters. That is a doubling down on waste! It is the all-to-common American mentality that if something is good, more of it must be better by all accounts. Nothing could be further from the truth here. It gets regurgitated here on BITOG with great aplomb, despite the facts to the contrary. BP filters have no great effect in normal OCIs; the particles are never large enough in a quantity large enough to really make any significant difference in the overall wear rates. If you know of a study that proves otherwise, then by all means feel free to bring up the evidence here. (Hint - if anyone points to the infamous GM filter study, they clearly don't understand the difference between ALT experiments and real world applications).



If one is going to do short, to moderate, OCIs, then BP filters have no real effect in wear control. It is the TBC and the add-pack that control wear for normal OCIs. No BP filter, no syn lube, is going to have any significant effect of soot control in a moderate OCI. Hence, my objection to his recommendation.



Yes - I ramble on; blah blah blah ...
but this is about conditional applications.
If OCIs are moderate, then BP and base stock have no effect and it is the add-pack that controls soot.
If OCIs are greatly extended, then BP and base stock have effect AFTER the add-pack becomes compromised.
There is NO VALID REASON to manage the problem from both ends of the equation; there is no proof that this lube management approach has any true benefit.
 
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