No I'm not a fan boy like you who loves to rush to defend them. Wow all the way back to 2014, and you know for fact they haven't had any issues?. It's a big world out there with alot of oil choices so I don't believe there isn't a better alternative oil to use in any vehicle made, over factory pushed oil. I don't own one of these and probably never will. Given the hinkey oil recommendation buy the company and shearing test results, It should be interesting what they say when warranty claims start coming in. I've learned to take a wait and see approach to everything in life. Jumping on the bandwagon too soon leads to disappointment in most cases.,,
Does Oil Shearing in Shared Gearboxes Taper Off?
- Thread starter tc1446
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Thanks Big Cahuna for your valuable input on oil shearing. I'm sure we've all gained a lot from it.
Simply put if manufactures don't fear the shear during OCI then owners shouldn't
either... even though the manufactures state over and over again it isn't necessary to
prematurely dump sheared oil to meet mileage expectations an owner has the option of cutting
the OCI short if it makes them FEEL better... but the notion an owner should dump sheared
oil in the name of longevity is on shaky ground...
either... even though the manufactures state over and over again it isn't necessary to
prematurely dump sheared oil to meet mileage expectations an owner has the option of cutting
the OCI short if it makes them FEEL better... but the notion an owner should dump sheared
oil in the name of longevity is on shaky ground...
You really enlightened us all with your brilliant explanation of how if you put blind faith in factory "engineers" everything will be alright.,,
How much continued thinning you see is going to be related to how much fuel is getting into the oil. Not necessarily how much shows up in [censored] Labs' hokey flash point based estimate, but how much is there dynamically, and for how long, as well as how much is there statically. Fuel not only brings down the average kinematic viscosity, it also attacks the fluid such that it appears to have 'sheared.' Whether that's the best word or not I do not choose to discuss.
In a shared sump, dynamic viscosity (what most would recognize as HTHS viscosity) is important for gear protection. Gear pitting has been observed by JASO, and/or the manufacturers, when dynamic viscosity goes too low. 2.4 cP is the figure that sticks in my head, but I won't claim to be positive that's the 'break point' they identified. The point is that dynamic viscosity testing is not part of a normal UOA, and using kinematic viscosity as a proxy is not appropriate unless you consider the formulation or 'make-up' of the fluid you're using.
So, in summary, my experience is that in most motorcycles the kinematic viscosity will continue to drop, but at a slower rate than the initial drop. Too, the amount and rate of initial drop has a lot to do with the oil formulation.
In a shared sump, dynamic viscosity (what most would recognize as HTHS viscosity) is important for gear protection. Gear pitting has been observed by JASO, and/or the manufacturers, when dynamic viscosity goes too low. 2.4 cP is the figure that sticks in my head, but I won't claim to be positive that's the 'break point' they identified. The point is that dynamic viscosity testing is not part of a normal UOA, and using kinematic viscosity as a proxy is not appropriate unless you consider the formulation or 'make-up' of the fluid you're using.
So, in summary, my experience is that in most motorcycles the kinematic viscosity will continue to drop, but at a slower rate than the initial drop. Too, the amount and rate of initial drop has a lot to do with the oil formulation.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Simply put if manufactures don't fear the shear during OCI then owners shouldn't
either... even though the manufactures state over and over again it isn't necessary to
prematurely dump sheared oil to meet mileage expectations an owner has the option of cutting
the OCI short if it makes them FEEL better... but the notion an owner should dump sheared
oil in the name of longevity is on shaky ground...
I agree on this, for me personally I would fall into the "feel better" category and change more often but then again I do that with most of my vehicles but more so in a shared sump or low tech motorcycle. Which may fall into the severe use category of an automobile, sometimes it just sits around, others times short trips etc.
Its also possible for me to start with a SLIGHTLY higher viscosity or a robust oil that is in recommended grade in the warm months as temps here of 100 degrees are common and the recommendations are an average. Some makers give you that option in the owners manual.
Before anyone comments I also agree too heavy then recommended is not good if the engine is not designed for it, you want free flowing fluid around your bearings and to reduce heat something that some forget.
Heck it maybe why the maker is not concerned about shearing to 30, 30 might be ideal but they start at 40 knowing its going to shear.
Simply put if manufactures don't fear the shear during OCI then owners shouldn't
either... even though the manufactures state over and over again it isn't necessary to
prematurely dump sheared oil to meet mileage expectations an owner has the option of cutting
the OCI short if it makes them FEEL better... but the notion an owner should dump sheared
oil in the name of longevity is on shaky ground...
I agree on this, for me personally I would fall into the "feel better" category and change more often but then again I do that with most of my vehicles but more so in a shared sump or low tech motorcycle. Which may fall into the severe use category of an automobile, sometimes it just sits around, others times short trips etc.
Its also possible for me to start with a SLIGHTLY higher viscosity or a robust oil that is in recommended grade in the warm months as temps here of 100 degrees are common and the recommendations are an average. Some makers give you that option in the owners manual.
Before anyone comments I also agree too heavy then recommended is not good if the engine is not designed for it, you want free flowing fluid around your bearings and to reduce heat something that some forget.
Heck it maybe why the maker is not concerned about shearing to 30, 30 might be ideal but they start at 40 knowing its going to shear.
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Originally Posted By: tc1446
Here is an excerp of what a BRP rep just posted on the Spyderlovers forum:
Quote: It is normal for a small engine, which includes a wet clutch and gearbox sharing the same oil, to shear down 20-30% within 1000-1500 miles but this shear flattens out and stabilizes for the remaining normal use interval. The 1330 ACE engine has been extensively tested to guarantee that 9300 miles is a safe oil change interval. Unquote
Thanks for sharing that. I was genuinely curious what they were going to say.
Here is an excerp of what a BRP rep just posted on the Spyderlovers forum:
Quote: It is normal for a small engine, which includes a wet clutch and gearbox sharing the same oil, to shear down 20-30% within 1000-1500 miles but this shear flattens out and stabilizes for the remaining normal use interval. The 1330 ACE engine has been extensively tested to guarantee that 9300 miles is a safe oil change interval. Unquote
Thanks for sharing that. I was genuinely curious what they were going to say.
Call me crazy, but I would look into this if I owned what you do. First would be a standard HEDO 15/40 oil. No problem there, for me, I would most likely change @ 5000 miles or 2 times a year.
However, I just saw this in another area of BITOG. Never knew it existed, kind of new. You would need to check out the wet clutch part, but sure it would be ok, then again, so is a standard 15/40.
Interesting, if my RK called for a 15/40 I would try it, Im using the same type of product in a 15/50.
Rotella T5 Semi Synthetic 15/40 (yes, that is correct, 15/40!)
Introducing Shell Rotella T5 15/40
Click and go to the bottom right side of the page for more info
However, I just saw this in another area of BITOG. Never knew it existed, kind of new. You would need to check out the wet clutch part, but sure it would be ok, then again, so is a standard 15/40.
Interesting, if my RK called for a 15/40 I would try it, Im using the same type of product in a 15/50.
Rotella T5 Semi Synthetic 15/40 (yes, that is correct, 15/40!)
Introducing Shell Rotella T5 15/40
Click and go to the bottom right side of the page for more info
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Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
CORRECTION: THE LOWER LIMIT IS 2.9cP for gear pitting. Sorry I had recalled it incorrectly.
Yep, two of the 4 members of JAMA recorded pitting between 2.7 and 2.9. The other two recorded "occasional pitting"
3.1 to 3.5 was "no pitting" for all 4 manufacturers.
and surprisingly for some, 3.9 to 4.2 had no pitting either...imagine the "gravity flow" at those viscosities.
CORRECTION: THE LOWER LIMIT IS 2.9cP for gear pitting. Sorry I had recalled it incorrectly.
Yep, two of the 4 members of JAMA recorded pitting between 2.7 and 2.9. The other two recorded "occasional pitting"
3.1 to 3.5 was "no pitting" for all 4 manufacturers.
and surprisingly for some, 3.9 to 4.2 had no pitting either...imagine the "gravity flow" at those viscosities.
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Here is an excerp of what a BRP rep just posted on the Spyderlovers forum:
Quote: It is normal for a small engine, which includes a wet clutch and gearbox sharing the same oil, to shear down 20-30% within 1000-1500 miles but this shear flattens out and stabilizes for the remaining normal use interval. The 1330 ACE engine has been extensively tested to guarantee that 9300 miles is a safe oil change interval. Unquote
Heres the entire article if you want to read it:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?82580-Oil-Level-on
Here is an excerp of what a BRP rep just posted on the Spyderlovers forum:
Quote: It is normal for a small engine, which includes a wet clutch and gearbox sharing the same oil, to shear down 20-30% within 1000-1500 miles but this shear flattens out and stabilizes for the remaining normal use interval. The 1330 ACE engine has been extensively tested to guarantee that 9300 miles is a safe oil change interval. Unquote
Heres the entire article if you want to read it:
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?82580-Oil-Level-on
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
CORRECTION: THE LOWER LIMIT IS 2.9cP for gear pitting. Sorry I had recalled it incorrectly.
Yep, two of the 4 members of JAMA recorded pitting between 2.7 and 2.9. The other two recorded "occasional pitting"
3.1 to 3.5 was "no pitting" for all 4 manufacturers.
and surprisingly for some, 3.9 to 4.2 had no pitting either...imagine the "gravity flow" at those viscosities.
Happily, a 2.9cP limit for avoiding pitting would allow a person to use a 20-grade and still have some 'cushion,' so long as they chose the proper formulation.
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
CORRECTION: THE LOWER LIMIT IS 2.9cP for gear pitting. Sorry I had recalled it incorrectly.
Yep, two of the 4 members of JAMA recorded pitting between 2.7 and 2.9. The other two recorded "occasional pitting"
3.1 to 3.5 was "no pitting" for all 4 manufacturers.
and surprisingly for some, 3.9 to 4.2 had no pitting either...imagine the "gravity flow" at those viscosities.
Happily, a 2.9cP limit for avoiding pitting would allow a person to use a 20-grade and still have some 'cushion,' so long as they chose the proper formulation.
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
You really enlightened us all with your brilliant explanation of how if you put blind faith in factory "engineers" everything will be alright.,,
Trust me, I'm an engineer...
You really enlightened us all with your brilliant explanation of how if you put blind faith in factory "engineers" everything will be alright.,,
Trust me, I'm an engineer...
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I agree on this, for me personally I would fall into the "feel better" category and change more often but then again I do that with most of my vehicles but more so in a shared sump or low tech motorcycle.
No problem... I can respect that... I think we all fall into that category to some degree...
I agree on this, for me personally I would fall into the "feel better" category and change more often but then again I do that with most of my vehicles but more so in a shared sump or low tech motorcycle.
No problem... I can respect that... I think we all fall into that category to some degree...
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