2013 HD XL1200C 5000 miles Red Line MC 20w-50

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Here is my latest UOA. Not what I was expecting! Copper is down just a little on this change, but not near what I expected.

Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from Harley's 1200cc V-Twin after about 2,500 miles. (This is the average of all oil analysis with all oils that Blackstone has done on the HD 1200 engine)

The bike is still under warranty for a few more weeks. I think I will talk with the service manager about looking into the cam bushings under warranty, if they will.

An oil change leaves about 15-18% of the old oil in the crankcase/heads/cam gears/bushing/lines/oil pump etc.
3.4 quarts dry fill and 2.8 quarts for oil change / filter change.
2.8 / 3.4 = .82

So with 0.6 quarts of the old oil still in the bike the new oil should have started with these levels of wear particles when mixed with the new-

Aluminum 13 X 0.15 = 1.97 - 2
Iron 11 X 0.15 = 1.7 - 2
Copper 278 X 0.15 = 41.7 - 42
lead 12 X 0.15 = 1.8 - 2
Tin 17 X 0.15 = 2.6 - 3

Copper wear per 1000 miiles is trending down slightly but still way higher than the universal averages.
1,000 miles 190 per thousand
5,000 miles 69.5 per thousand
10,000 miles 52.6 per thousand

I bought the bike as a demo with about 50 miles on it. It was built in October of 2012, I bought it in July 2013.
Had the first service done at about 1000 miles with SYN 3.
Had the 5000 mile service done at the dealer and supplied Red Line MC 20w-50 oil (Red Line MT-90 supplied for the primary/transmission)

Took this sample prior to the next oil change at 10,000 miles. I have Red Line MC 20w-50 for the change, Red Line 75w-110 for the primary/transmission.

Plan to also have the trans/primary lube analyzed.

SportsterOilReport10KBITOG.jpg
 
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Originally Posted By: WANG
It will be interesting to hear what the service cats have to say about that alarming Cu value.


It will, that seems rather concerning...

I think I would be inclined to push pretty hard to get something done ...

You might also consider the Scavenger at the next change:

http://roguechopper.com/
 
I would be very surprised to see the dealership tear down the motor.

What made the Moly jump to 375? All the rest of the numbers are all messed up too. You sure they didn't dump the MT-90 into the engine? Are you putting some sort of additive in the oil?

You have couple of options, if you're that concerned.
1) Sell the bike.
2) Buy extended warranty (has no mileage limit) and keep riding.
3) Try a different oil..
 
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Originally Posted By: shanneba
I like Red Line oil, HD recomends a 20w-50 viscosity oil.
It is the V-Twin version of Red Line 20w-50.


Gosh, I feel for ya ... will be interesting to see what the dealer says. I know nothing about the 1200 engine, but that is a scary cooper number, tin almost doubled. IM sure you compared the UOA to other similar engines...

It certainly isnt an oil make problem no matter what oil you use.
 
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Originally Posted By: rossn2
I would be very surprised to see the dealership tear down the motor.

What made the Moly jump to 375? All the rest of the numbers are all messed up too. You sure they didn't dump the MT-90 into the engine? Are you putting some sort of additive in the oil?




The moly is an additive in the Red Line oil, it is formulated with about 500ppm acording to the Red Line spec sheet for this oil.
It also starts with 2500ppm of Zinc and 2100ppm Phosphorous

What other numbers are messed up?

All three oils used, HD 360 convenional 20w-50, HD SYN3 20w-50 and Red Line showed high copper, it is not an oil weight/brand issue.
 
Zinc, Calcium and Phosphorus are still high because the additives have not been used up / depleted. 5000 miles is Harley's recomended oil change interval for abpve freezing temps.

No oil cooler, the oil temp runs about 120 F over the ambient temp from my obsevation of the oil temp dipstick I have. Usually around 200 F or so when it's 75-80F outside.
 
Originally Posted By: shanneba
Zinc, Calcium and Phosphorus are still high because the additives have not been used up / depleted. 5000 miles is Harley's recomended oil change interval for abpve freezing temps.

No oil cooler, the oil temp runs about 120 F over the ambient temp from my obsevation of the oil temp dipstick I have. Usually around 200 F or so when it's 75-80F outside.


Sorry, wasn't clear..I mean't they should have been used up more in the 5k mile OCI. I noticed your sample dates, which are nearly 1-year apart. So, you're riding the bike, storing it in cold temps over the winter, and then running it again all with the same oil? Most people do not leave used oil in a bike over the winter months due to possible contaminants causing issues ..just saying maybe it's throwing your numbers off?
 
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FWIW, my brother runs Red Line's automotive 5W30 in his H-D (Dyna; last year of the carb'd engine), and sees lower oil temps than most H-D owners in his area, based on IR scans of the crankcase.
 
Originally Posted By: rossn2
Originally Posted By: shanneba
Zinc, Calcium and Phosphorus are still high because the additives have not been used up / depleted. 5000 miles is Harley's recomended oil change interval for abpve freezing temps.

No oil cooler, the oil temp runs about 120 F over the ambient temp from my obsevation of the oil temp dipstick I have. Usually around 200 F or so when it's 75-80F outside.


Sorry, wasn't clear..I mean't they should have been used up more in the 5k mile OCI. I noticed your sample dates, which are nearly 1-year apart. So, you're riding the bike, storing it in cold temps over the winter, and then running it again all with the same oil? Most people do not leave used oil in a bike over the winter months due to possible contaminants causing issues ..just saying maybe it's throwing your numbers off?


How exactly do you think you know how much of the add pack "should" be used up at this mileage n
Your entire post is nonsense.
You have no idea what the add pack consists of but you think you know what levels they should be at in 5000 miles.
Beyond absurd.

Redline is great oil. I'm using shockproof heavy in my street Bob. Rotella in the primary and engine.
I'm looking forward to see what this uoa looks like after 10000 miles. I've never run that kind of interval on my bike.
Install an oil cooler. I've got a jagg 100 row and a pair of high speed fans installed in front of each jug. Those fans move so much air the oil temps never crack 240f in traffic anymore.
Look up fabrik8tor. He makes the fan set up I've got. Great system. Bolts up to the horn mount.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy

I'm looking forward to see what this uoa looks like after 10000 miles. I've never run that kind of interval on my bike.


I'll be changing this fill soon. With TBN of 6+ at almost 5000 miles, I would run it to 7500 miles and check the TBN if I was interested in extending the oci. I'm not at this time.

rossn2 Yes I stored it over the winter with the oil with a couple thousand miles on it EXCEPT the first fill. I can only assume it was in the bike from the factory, I don't know if the miles were put on just before I bought it or if it was ridden 50 miles in October and sat until I bought it. I'll ask when get to the service department. I have ridden it every winter several times, usually at least 25 miles on a nice day.
 
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I would lose no sleep whatsoever leaving relatively fresh oil in over the winter, especially if you're one to get out for a ride if you catch an odd 40 degree day through the winter. Even when living in MI, my bikes were never "stored for the winter" just waiting for a break in the weather.
 
The Gerbing heated jacket, pant liner, gloves and socks work great, as long as there isn't snow on the roads
smile.gif


It was 32 F when I started my Iron Butt ride back around Easter. Was really nice riding weather through Misouri and Arkansas.
 
The dealer Service Manager says they will not open the cam case to check for an improerly fitted /wearing bushing.

I'll change the oil and continue to monitor it. I may open the the cam case later to see for my self if copper doesn't decrease soon.
 
Originally Posted By: shanneba
The dealer Service Manager says they will not open the cam case to check for an improerly fitted /wearing bushing.

...


Did they actually write a repair order?

If not I would be inclined to write a "confirming out conversation of" letter and copy HD on it.

At least if it does fail at a later date with something containing much copper, you can make a reasonable case that you complained about it during the warranty period. It might or might not get fixed as "goodwill" out of the warranty period, but at least you'll have evidence that you requested service.

So what is bonze in a sporty motor, cam bushings and wrist pin bushings?
 
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