Does Oil Shearing in Shared Gearboxes Taper Off?

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From my experience testing a variety of motorcycle oils in shared gearbox of my Can Am, most shear down to low 30's by 2-3000 mile and on down into 20's at 4000 miles. Somewhere I read that shearing occurs early on. Question is, does it continue to shear significantly, like it does between 2-4000 miles, or does it taper off, and perhaps stay in the 20 range for a good period? Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about this?

I've never had the balls to run it past 4000 in my machine but BRP says oil only needs changing every 9300 miles on the Can Am 1330 motors, and I am beyond curious how that can be.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
The engine is kind of expensive and oil is kind of cheap.


Oil is cheap is it?

How much has the absurd war on terror(control the oil) cost the american taxpayer in folding cash and human life.
It is highly subsidized in that the true cost isn't reflected in the price paid.

So I'm on the other end. Oil is priceless once you consider the human lives lost fighting for control of it. It's an inconvenient truth that many either aren't capable of seeing or know and just don't care. Either way doesn't change the fact that good men and women are dying so you can have cheap oil.
Consider that when some idiot recites the "cheap insurance" drivel or "peace of mind" nonsense.
I think there should be a big sticker on the front of every oil jug that states exactly how many people died fighting during the production of each jug.
Maybe people would be less wasteful,such a patriotic nation would be appalled knowing this oil change cost X amount of local and American blood,and of course how much the nation spent on the military but only cost the consumer 19.99.
So be realistic in your comments. Oil is in no way cheap.
Add in the cost to the environment and how much future dollars will be spent cleaning up oil fields ,the air,water supplies and only a fool truly believes oil is in any way cheap.
It isn't.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
The engine is kind of expensive and oil is kind of cheap.


Oil is cheap is it?

How much has the absurd war on terror(control the oil) cost the american taxpayer in folding cash and human life.
It is highly subsidized in that the true cost isn't reflected in the price paid.

So I'm on the other end. Oil is priceless once you consider the human lives lost fighting for control of it. It's an inconvenient truth that many either aren't capable of seeing or know and just don't care. Either way doesn't change the fact that good men and women are dying so you can have cheap oil.
Consider that when some idiot recites the "cheap insurance" drivel or "peace of mind" nonsense.
I think there should be a big sticker on the front of every oil jug that states exactly how many people died fighting during the production of each jug.
Maybe people would be less wasteful,such a patriotic nation would be appalled knowing this oil change cost X amount of local and American blood,and of course how much the nation spent on the military but only cost the consumer 19.99.
So be realistic in your comments. Oil is in no way cheap.
Add in the cost to the environment and how much future dollars will be spent cleaning up oil fields ,the air,water supplies and only a fool truly believes oil is in any way cheap.
It isn't.


Considering the MPG you get out of motor oil vs. the MPG you get out of gasoline I think your rant is a bit off target, especially for someone with a Challenger RT, not a Prius, in their sig.
I dub thee troll.
 
I'd love to hear some more about the OP's question as well, I'd be curious if oil shear was a linear progression. I've always thought the often recited cost of an engine vs the cost of a couple qts of oil was a false choice for the most part anyways.
 
Originally Posted By: tc1446
BRP says oil only needs changing every 9300 miles on the Can Am 1330 motors, and I am beyond curious how that can be.



BRP can say that because their engineers don't fear the shear... owners fear the shear
because if the oil shears 1.5 cSt from a 30 to 20 they think the oil size was reduced by
1.5 cSt... but 1.5 cSt is the result of a gravity flow test not oil size test... so
thinking in terms of more flow like the engineers and not oil size like some owners we
may see the logic behind 9300 mile oil change interval...

Understanding a 1.5 cSt change in viscosity is measured by noting the
time it takes oil to travel through the orifice of a capillary under
the force of gravity... its not a size measurement...

backup_200203_KinemVisc-Fig1.gif

ViscosityRangeChart_zpskm9tpk3h.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: tc1446
From my experience testing a variety of motorcycle oils in shared gearbox of my Can Am, most shear down to low 30's by 2-3000 mile and on down into 20's at 4000 miles. Somewhere I read that shearing occurs early on. Question is, does it continue to shear significantly, like it does between 2-4000 miles, or does it taper off, and perhaps stay in the 20 range for a good period? Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about this?

I've never had the balls to run it past 4000 in my machine but BRP says oil only needs changing every 9300 miles on the Can Am 1330 motors, and I am beyond curious how that can be.



To directly answer your questions,

1. The shearing will taper off, normally in the first 2500 miles or so, the manufacturers know this and why important to stick to the grade/viscosity oil recommended by the manufacturer.

2. The reason to stick to the viscosity recommended is this and of all things, important, in a oil shearing machine like the Can Am.

3. A GENERAL rule of thumb and why makers recommend viscosity that they do are for a reason. (Ill refrain from getting in a debate about this*L*)

Remember, I said GENERAL, pretty much (for illustrative purposes) a 20/50 oil is a 20 weight oil with viscosity improvers in it, these improvers expand to make the oil act like a 50 weight oil when hot.
The (index improver) is made up of a polymer and in a machine like gear cases, transmissions this polymer gets chewed up and becomes ineffective or should be said, less effective, leaving you closer to the original weight oil, so a 20/50 becomes closer to a 20 weight oil.
The above is a simple explanation. In reality I doubt very much a 20/50 oil would shear much below a 40 weight, simply because there is is less improver, vs a 5/40 oil or 10/40 or even better 15/40 or 20/40.

There is a reason why makers ex. Indian/Victory spec a 20/40 oil. The less spread in the oil the less shearing will take place, simply because there is less polymers to shear.
Its when people, thinking they are doing good to their engine select a well made synthetic like Rotella T-6, the thing is the engine makers do not recommend a 5/40 oil for a reason, they know it will shear down fast, the spread is to large. T-6 is a respectable oil as the other HDEOs but a 5/40 viscosity is not the proper viscosity for the purpose and why one would be better off with the conventional 15/40 of that product.
All the above is a general overview and thinking behind it. Bottom line is, the higher the lower number is, the less shearing will take place, if you do that and listen to the engine maker recommendations you should be ok and if it bothers you, as it would me, you can always change at, lets say, 5000 miles instead of 9000 miles but I assume, the engine maker is already taking into account the shearing that will take place as long as you are using the viscosity they are recommending.
 
This is something that I have wondered about more than a couple times.

Scenario usually goes something like manufacturer recommends viscosity "X" and service interval "A", owner selects top shelf lube oil in recommended viscosity and pulls a UOA at something significantly shy of the prescribed service interval. Shares UOA results and BITOGers have a litter of kittens over the loss of viscosity (in the absence of fuel contamination) due to shear. Certainly, the engineers who specified the oil and service intervals were aware of the shearing effects of the engine on oil when they determined the viscosity and service interval.

For me and my shared sump machines, I let my left foot dictate drain intervals. It really doesn't matter to me if the service life of the engine is not negatively impacted by the recommended intervals if the tactile feel of the gearbox goes to pot well short of the prescribed service interval. If "nice" gearbox feel is restored by a simple oil change at that point, I'm changing the oil. On those same lines, some oils have better shift feel than others, even from fresh. The gearbox feel introduces a legitimate subjective aspect of lube oil performance and longevity in shared sump machines. That's wheremI'm at with it, anyway.
 
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I took a look at the Can Am site and they don't say what wt. the oil is. All the say is "4-Stroke synthetic Blend Oil – Summer Grade" and "4-Stroke Synthetic Oil - All climate Grade". But they don't say what wt.

If it calls for a 15/40 or 10/40 could you run a qt. or two of straight 40wt ? Maybe it won't shear so much.

ROD
 
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

Remember, I said GENERAL, pretty much (for illustrative purposes) a 20/50 oil is a 20 weight oil

Bottom line is, the higher the lower number is, the less shearing will take place



Negative... according to API the lower number in a 20/50 have no
reference to a viscosity... it is only a relative test number which
basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over"
at low temperatures. In other words, a 20w50 is NOT a 20 weight oil in
cold temperatures and a 50 weight oil in warm temperatures... rather a
20w50 actual viscosity is as follows...

60ºF 426 cSt (calculated)
104ºF 120 cSt (kinematic flow test)
212ºF 18 cSt (kinematic flow test)

Kinematic flow test that means the oil was heated to 212ºF (100ºC) and
it flowed within a certain time and that time is its kinematic
viscosity which is then classified as SAE grade "50" in 20w50...

API ranks the first number 20 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up...
this important because engineers and mechanics both agree that the
most wear happens during start up before warm up...

0w

5W

10W

15W

20W

If you wish to employ the latest in oil technology then you want an one with an API
rank of 5W or 0W...
 
For clarification, the BRP blend has been reported to be 5-40. Most owners who change their own use 10-40. I normally add a quart of 20-50 to mine.

A friend with an identical motor to mine just tested the BRP oil at ALS lab and it came back after 4400 miles as cST 100 8.9...down to upper 20 weight.

The same friend asked BRP to clarify some of these questions and apparently they have done that and the results are to be published on SpyderLOvers.com. I haven't seen them yet but when I do, I will cut and paste their answers here. From what I got secondhand, BRP says, basically, they tested at various mileage marks to come up with 9300 OAL and that oil shearing does taper off after the first couple thousand miles.

Perhaps I need to trust the engineers more than I do.

For Wang: My Can Am has a hydraulic clutch so I don't get a feel for the changing. It does seem as tho shifting noise gets louder as miles pile up, but this is very subjective.
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop

BRP can say that because their engineers don't fear the shear... owners fear the shear because if the oil shears 1.5 cSt from a 30 to 20 they think the oil size was reduced by 1.5 cSt... but 1.5 cSt is the result of a gravity flow test not oil size test... so
thinking in terms of more flow like the engineers and not oil size like some owners we may see the logic behind 9300 mile oil change interval...

Understanding a 1.5 cSt change in viscosity is measured by noting the time it takes oil to travel through the orifice of a capillary under the force of gravity... its not a size measurement...


You keep up with this more flow thing...oil "size", where did you come up with that ?


If it was "size", it would be measured in length, area or volume...

It's not, it is measured in mm^2/sec, a shear rate.

if you are thinking your uneven marbles analogy, that's just plain wrong.

Hydrodynamic lubrication relies on viscosity, surface speed, ad bearing dimensions to support the load on the bearing.

You can design a bearing to run on water (1cst), but it's big, and holds a low load. You can run that bearing designed to run water on a 10cst fluid, and aside from some drag and heat will not cause damage.

If you design the bearing for 10cst, and put water in it, you will fail the bearing.

1.5cst /10cst is 15%...it has an impact, and in the negative direction. It reduces oil film thicknesses, and brings moving parts closer together for the same load/revs.
 
Originally Posted By: WANG
This is something that I have wondered about more than a couple times.

Scenario usually goes something like manufacturer recommends viscosity "X" and service interval "A", owner selects top shelf lube oil in recommended viscosity and pulls a UOA at something significantly shy of the prescribed service interval. Shares UOA results and BITOGers have a litter of kittens over the loss of viscosity (in the absence of fuel contamination) due to shear. Certainly, the engineers who specified the oil and service intervals were aware of the shearing effects of the engine on oil when they determined the viscosity and service interval.

For me and my shared sump machines, I let my left foot dictate drain intervals. It really doesn't matter to me if the service life of the engine is not negatively impacted by the recommended intervals if the tactile feel of the gearbox goes to pot well short of the prescribed service interval. If "nice" gearbox feel is restored by a simple oil change at that point, I'm changing the oil. On those same lines, some oils have better shift feel than others, even from fresh. The gearbox feel introduces a legitimate subjective aspect of lube oil performance and longevity in shared sump machines. That's wheremI'm at with it, anyway.


Well said ...
 
[/quote]

Negative... according to API the lower number in a 20/50 have no
reference to a viscosity... it is only a relative test number which
basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over"....
[/quote]

If you go to the UOAs in this very forum, you will notice a clear and STRONG pattern of 5/40 oils shearing much faster and greater then 15/40 oils in shared sumps. The proof is there asnd why my statement.
 
Originally Posted By: tc1446
For clarification, the BRP blend has been reported to be 5-40. Most owners who change their own use 10-40. I normally add a quart of 20-50 to mine.

A friend with an identical motor to mine just tested the BRP oil at ALS lab and it came back after 4400 miles as cST 100 8.9...down to upper 20 weight.

The same friend asked BRP to clarify some of these questions and apparently they have done that and the results are to be published on SpyderLOvers.com. I haven't seen them yet but when I do, I will cut and paste their answers here. From what I got secondhand, BRP says, basically, they tested at various mileage marks to come up with 9300 OAL and that oil shearing does taper off after the first couple thousand miles.

Perhaps I need to trust the engineers more than I do.

For Wang: My Can Am has a hydraulic clutch so I don't get a feel for the changing. It does seem as tho shifting noise gets louder as miles pile up, but this is very subjective.


Well then, everything is subjective if Can Am does not even recommend an oil weight!??! Who has ever heard of anything like that, to be honest I dont see how that is possible. But anyway it does depend on the climate you are in, if you were here in SC, where the temps where I live were 100 degrees for like the last 10 days and very common, I would be using a 15/40 maybe even a light 20/50.
or like you are doing, 3 10/40 and 1 20/50 or 2 and 2.

If you live in Canada or Upstate NY, I would not be as concerned and stick with a 10/40

Ps, I just went to the site you mentioned, its clearly stated by someone posting a UOA there that XPS is a 5/40, sheared to the 20s . I would only use that in the dead of winter, colder areas of the US
With all that said, I know nothing about the CAN AM engine, maybe its made to run on 25 weight oil.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

Remember, I said GENERAL, pretty much (for illustrative purposes) a 20/50 oil is a 20 weight oil

Bottom line is, the higher the lower number is, the less shearing will take place



Negative... according to API the lower number in a 20/50 have no
reference to a viscosity... it is only a relative test number which
basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over"
at low temperatures. In other words, a 20w50 is NOT a 20 weight oil in
cold temperatures and a 50 weight oil in warm temperatures... rather a
20w50 actual viscosity is as follows...

60ºF 426 cSt (calculated)
104ºF 120 cSt (kinematic flow test)
212ºF 18 cSt (kinematic flow test)

Kinematic flow test that means the oil was heated to 212ºF (100ºC) and
it flowed within a certain time and that time is its kinematic
viscosity which is then classified as SAE grade "50" in 20w50...

API ranks the first number 20 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up...
this important because engineers and mechanics both agree that the
most wear happens during start up before warm up...

0w

5W

10W

15W

20W

If you wish to employ the latest in oil technology then you want an one with an API
rank of 5W or 0W...


BusyLittleShop, you are half right, the W is now to do with cranking and startability...it doesn't tell you diddlysquat about "warmup wear" at anything other than the extreme cold...like I've pointed out previously, M1 0W30 and 5W30 have basically identical viscosities at temperatures above freezing...the 0W or 5W will make no difference whatsoever to warmup wear.

a 10W 15w, or even a 20W at freezing isn't going to make much if any difference.

the "W" was "gravity flow", to put it into your words when the concept was introduced...the "sae 20" oils that flowed the best at 0F were used as the "gravity flow" standard for the "20W" grade.

Using the best basestocks at the time, you could have an SAE20, which was a 20 at 100C, or a 20W20, which was the best basestocks at a "winter" and high temperature "gravity flow"...

Later they went to the "Cold Cranking Simulator", and redefined the process to maximum viscosities at progressively lower temperatures...a much more sensible approach.

so alarmguy (and oil 101) are sort of correct in that originally multigrades WERE sort of a "20W" oil with VII to bump it up hot.

It's not that simple, and so not simple that it's nearly completely wrong, they don't start with a 10W, and bump it up to a 40, they start somewherewrong.

But a 0W40 will have a thinner basestock than a 5W40, which will have a thinner basestock than a 10W40, whcih will have a thinner basestock than a 15W40 in oils of similar make-up.

The 0W40 will always have more capacity to shear, due to a thinner basestock than a 20W40...Redline make an SAE40 that meets 15W, and you can pretty well guarantee that's where it stays.
 
Originally Posted By: Surestick
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
The engine is kind of expensive and oil is kind of cheap.


Oil is cheap is it?

How much has the absurd war on terror(control the oil) cost the american taxpayer in folding cash and human life.
It is highly subsidized in that the true cost isn't reflected in the price paid.

So I'm on the other end. Oil is priceless once you consider the human lives lost fighting for control of it. It's an inconvenient truth that many either aren't capable of seeing or know and just don't care. Either way doesn't change the fact that good men and women are dying so you can have cheap oil.
Consider that when some idiot recites the "cheap insurance" drivel or "peace of mind" nonsense.
I think there should be a big sticker on the front of every oil jug that states exactly how many people died fighting during the production of each jug.
Maybe people would be less wasteful,such a patriotic nation would be appalled knowing this oil change cost X amount of local and American blood,and of course how much the nation spent on the military but only cost the consumer 19.99.
So be realistic in your comments. Oil is in no way cheap.
Add in the cost to the environment and how much future dollars will be spent cleaning up oil fields ,the air,water supplies and only a fool truly believes oil is in any way cheap.
It isn't.


Considering the MPG you get out of motor oil vs. the MPG you get out of gasoline I think your rant is a bit off target, especially for someone with a Challenger RT, not a Prius, in their sig.
I dub thee troll.
Troll squared. Nothing like a bullslip political whiner reply to a very reasonable lubrication question. Perhaps this beauty has been run off the political sites and this is the only one still tolerating him.
 
Here is an excerp of what a BRP rep just posted on the Spyderlovers forum:

Quote: It is normal for a small engine, which includes a wet clutch and gearbox sharing the same oil, to shear down 20-30% within 1000-1500 miles but this shear flattens out and stabilizes for the remaining normal use interval. The 1330 ACE engine has been extensively tested to guarantee that 9300 miles is a safe oil change interval. Unquote
 
How I read this is, OUR oil will shear 20- 30%, and if it does cause excessive engine or transmission wear, you can pay us to fix it. I don't know but one person that will go 10 miles on their motor oil, most change it before the factory recommended oci. So trying to get the last mile out of a oil known to shear itself to death isn't appealing to most. Why would a company Recommend a odd weight oil for their machines that has a history of poor performance, if it wasn't just to cause fear in it's customers and make extra profit?.,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
How I read this is, OUR oil will shear 20- 30%, and if it does cause excessive engine or transmission wear, you can pay us to fix it. I don't know but one person that will go 10 miles on their motor oil, most change it before the factory recommended oci. So trying to get the last mile out of a oil known to shear itself to death isn't appealing to most. Why would a company Recommend a odd weight oil for their machines that has a history of poor performance, if it wasn't just to cause fear in it's customers and make extra profit?.,,


The above from BRP addresses specifically the 1330 motor which has been out only since
2014. There have been almost ZERO issues with it. A few with some of the
electronic components which were quickly addressed by BRP. Sounds like you have a major bone to pick with BRP products.
 
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