1993 Mercedes 400e, Castrol Edge 10W-40, 5k miles

[vivaUkraine]

Hello fellas. Interesting UOI results that I'd like to share:

Car: 1993 Mercedes 400E (32 valve V8, 275HP (when new)
Mileage on the car: 105k miles
Mileage on oil 5,025 miles/9 month

I'm in Los Angeles, CA. Bought the car locally. Odometer read 98k miles. History suggests it was at least mostly a California car. It appeared to be well kept and in close to excellent condition

I changed the oil at exactly 100,000k on the odometer to top shelf synthetic at local Autzone: the Castrol Edge 10W-40 (did not "fluid titanium technology on the bottle, otherwise black bottle) at $9 something per quart. Oil change was done in September 2014 and oil was bought then. I did not check the bottle, but I assume it was the SN certified version.

The car is driven in severe conditions of the stop-and-go in crazy LA traffic, with lots of short trips, and lots of WOT.

Additionally, and it should be an interesting detail to you gearheads, this type of Mercedes likes to run hot. The red zone is at 125C and the owners manual explicitly states that everything up to that temperature is OK. Often times my car sits at 100C, and almost as often it hits 105C at which auxiliary fans come on at high speed and knock down the temp to 98C, which returns to 105C in several minutes of stop-and-go LA traffic in usually warm to hot weather.

Do not that 100C and 105C is temperature of the coolant, so oil must be even hotter (so I think). Occasionally and very dense, uphill traffic, if temp hits 105C and fans come on, but I'm driving stop-and-go uphill (no air movement through radiator) I've seen temp hit 110C before being brought down by the fans.

Additionally I should not the WOTs happened numerous times at 105C and at 110C. The highest coolant temp I've seen is 115C in 95F weather, with 4 people in the car and A/C on, going uphill on the freeway at WOT at 95MPH.

Also the car has seen 140MPH a few times. And lots of 40mph-110mph freeway entrances

So you get that the car runs hot and is driven briskly often with multiple WOTs. So how do you like my UOA and what are your thoughts on Castrol Edge 10W-40, which apparently is not even a premium formulation compared to other grades of Castrol!!!

Your thoughts on the subject and random, and comments are welcome!

Anyone know why Boron could be so high? Interestingly, BlackStone did not comment on it...



хос&#1...090;о

 

[HTSS_TR]

Wear metal looks good for 22 years old engine. Your engine has the same power as the 4.3L V8 engine in the 2000 E-class.

My coolant temperature never raised above 95C, even at 90+ MPH on I-15 to Vegas while passing Death Valley going up hills in summer heat. The coolant temperature is about 83-86C on So Cal highway with 80 MPH, only raise to 95C(plus/minus 1-2C) on heavy city traffic.

If I was you I would use Mobil 1 0W40, it is available at Walmart for $22.xx 5-qt jugs(for about $4.50/qt), the price may go back to $26.xx anytime. Buying any oil at Autozone or O'Reilly or Pep Boys at regular everyday price is not very wise.

PS if you like Castrol the 0W40 is $26.xx 5-qt jug at Walmart.

 

[ExMachina]

Very good report! Low iron ppm levels. Good TBN. I noticed the moly-boron-titanium AW additives look to be about the same amounts as black-bottle 0w-20 does these days.

I'm with HTSS_TR on this one, use M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-40 though. They've never met a Mercedes engine they didn't like.

 

[Pontual]

During jammed traffic, oil temperatures is usually below coolant's. In highway is usually the other way - oil higher than coolant.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
During jammed traffic, oil temperatures is usually below coolant's. In highway is usually the other way - oil higher than coolant.


Depends on a number of things. That isn't the case for my M5 and may not be the case for this Mercedes.

 

[vivaUkraine]

I could not believe how good the UOA looked. I thought the oil would shear and there would be a lot more wear from numerous WOTs, particularly on warm engine, like 105C coolant temp

I think why your merc is running cooler than mine, even though its the same engine, is that yours is W210 with an engine bay originally designed to house a V8. I'm sure you know that W124 engine bay's were not designed to house a V8 when conceived. But also, apparently to contrary believe, 105C is indeed a normal temperature for this engine, given its wear levels in my UOA

Additionally, owners' manual specifies 20W-50 oil for warm climates(!) or 5W-50 for climates that have cold winters and hot summers. For the new oil fill I used 6 quarts of PP Euro 5w-400 and 2.5 quarts of Castrol edge 10w-40, but this time it said "titanium fluid technology" on the bottle.

What's your take on using 20W-50 vs Mobil 1 0W-40???

P.S. since the oil change, I've done a transistor mod that tricks aux fans to come on at high speed at 93C instead 105C. As a result, aux fans are often blasting, but my temp needle swims between 82C and 87C now in in most horrible traffic conditions

 

[vivaUkraine]

I'd assume that engine can only so fast pass on heat to coolant, so coolant is, I'd think is cooler than engine internals, and therefore oil. No?

 

[Hessam]

Why are u mixing PP Euro 5w-40 with such an pedestrian castroll synthetic. Just go with PP Euro or cheaper oil u could use for that engine is RT6. Would probably do just as well in that engine, if not better

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Pontual
During jammed traffic, oil temperatures is usually below coolant's. In highway is usually the other way - oil higher than coolant.


Depends on a number of things. That isn't the case for my M5 and may not be the case for this Mercedes.


So, these cars may have lube circulation problems or low oil level or bad oil quality. Excess blowby possibility. Check gauge/dipstick accuracy and engine oil quality and do a compression test.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: vivaUkraine
I'd assume that engine can only so fast pass on heat to coolant, so coolant is, I'd think is cooler than engine internals, and therefore oil. No?

Sure, the engine internals are hotter, but the cooling system has more efficiency then oil system to get the heat out, and water jackets are there around the main heat producer (Combustion chamber), but at low speeds/rpms, the heat comes in with more intensity and quantity than the exit or such heat out to the air. Because the air is a poor robber (low calorific charactristics) of heat in comparison to the water, witch has a much better than air and even oil's calorific power. And who cools down the water? The air. It needs to be rushing to overkill the heat production, or you gonna have to have water reserves to win some time, witch the system has to some degree. Therefore the water remains with more heat longer at low speed/rpms and the thermostat opens all over, spreading the heat to the remanescent water until it eventually saturates, then the fan comes in fast to give the radiator more incident air. More incident air, translates to more speed to the car, in spite its been trapped on traffic.
Then at higher speeds/rpms the greater incoming air and water circulation (impeller from pump) to the radiator overkills again the heat production.
That's just basic physics. Only a defective car will get its oil at traffic (a lot of idle), higher temps than on the highway at 70mph.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Pontual
During jammed traffic, oil temperatures is usually below coolant's. In highway is usually the other way - oil higher than coolant.


Depends on a number of things. That isn't the case for my M5 and may not be the case for this Mercedes.


So, these cars may have lube circulation problems or low oil level or bad oil quality. Excess blowby possibility. Check gauge/dipstick accuracy and engine oil quality and do a compression test.


????

I'd love for you to explain what you've just posted.

 

[Pontual]

Read above!!!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Read above!!!


Yeah, still really having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say.

Note that many cars don't just have fans that "come on". I have both an electric and a mechanical fan. The electric fan is primarily for the air conditioning but also will come on if the mechanical fan is overwhelmed.

Then we have to factor in the presence and operation of thermostatically controlled oil coolers too. That's why I said "it depends" because coolings systems are not universal between vehicles, they can, and often do, vary significantly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Oil temp @ 140Km/h (you'll notice it is low, around 80C), coolant is in the middle of the gauge, so around 85-90C:

Oil temp in stop-and-go on the DVP, it is around 95C (which is where the cooler/t-stat seems to "trigger"), coolant is still in the middle of the gauge, so around 85-90C:

These are the behaviours for this particular car due to its design characteristics I already outlined, they are not universal. I am not intimately familiar with the design of the OP's Mercedes but if it shares some of the same traits, it may behave similarly. Note that this car is not defective, has no sludge, is running a premium lubricant (M1 0w-40) and is in perfect mechanical health. This is simply how it behave as per BMW.

BTW, the CEL is for the EVAP solenoid, which doesn't factor into any of this (but in case you wondered).

 

[Pontual]

Got the CEL issue, ok ...
Check this and you will understand what I've said

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/

Lower paragraphs

...
"Now let me discuss what people think is a similar situation to racing. That is hot summer traffic jam driving. Your car should be able to handle this. If you have problems then you have a problem with your car, most likely in need of a cooling system overhaul.

When you drive that car down the road mid-winter in upstate New York or mid-summer in Florida the engine and oil temperatures will be around 212°F. But your Florida vacation is suddenly altered by a hurricane. You have to get out of Tampa, but so do a million other people. It is now 95°F and you are in a snarl. Everyone thinks they need a thicker oil for this situation. This is false.

Your engine is not producing much heat at low RPM and low BHP output. The production of heat is relatively slow. It can easily be transmitted to your cooling system. The problem is that your cooling system has trouble getting rid of the heat. The oil and the coolant will slowly rise in temperature. They both rise together. The increase is no big deal for your oil. It goes to 220°, then 230°F. The problem is that the cooling system can only handle heat up to 230°F. After that you overheat the cooling system and the car must be shut off. The oil never got that hot, It was just that the water got a little hotter than its system design.

You now see that overheating in traffic is a cooling system problem and not an oil system problem. Do not change to a thicker oil based on your traffic situation."

My highlights.

Oils withstand much more heat than is subjected in traffic, so that heat isn't concern for UOA. That's what I meant.

Yes, maybe we can set you M5 or a Mercedes, aside...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Check this and you will understand what I've said

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-105/

Lower paragraphs


I'm not going to bother reading that, as most of those articles have some serious issues.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
...
"Now let me discuss what people think is a similar situation to racing. That is hot summer traffic jam driving. Your car should be able to handle this. If you have problems then you have a problem with your car, most likely in need of a cooling system overhaul.


OK, we are on the same page here, stop and go is nothing like racing due to the lack of load.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
When you drive that car down the road mid-winter in upstate New York or mid-summer in Florida the engine and oil temperatures will be around 212°F.


Not on my car and probably many large German cruisers as the cooling system is too "big" and subsequently oil and coolant temperatures are both lower in the winter months, particularly the oil temperature, which has to be dragged up by the coolant via a heat exchanger.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
But your Florida vacation is suddenly altered by a hurricane. You have to get out of Tampa, but so do a million other people. It is now 95°F and you are in a snarl. Everyone thinks they need a thicker oil for this situation. This is false.


That wasn't really part of the discussion, my issue was with your posit regarding the absolute relationship you made about coolant and oil temp in regards to highway and in-town.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Your engine is not producing much heat at low RPM and low BHP output. The production of heat is relatively slow. It can easily be transmitted to your cooling system. The problem is that your cooling system has trouble getting rid of the heat. The oil and the coolant will slowly rise in temperature. They both rise together. The increase is no big deal for your oil. It goes to 220°, then 230°F. The problem is that the cooling system can only handle heat up to 230°F. After that you overheat the cooling system and the car must be shut off. The oil never got that hot, It was just that the water got a little hotter than its system design.

You now see that overheating in traffic is a cooling system problem and not an oil system problem. Do not change to a thicker oil based on your traffic situation."

My highlights.


We never once talked about an overheat situation, how does that factor in here? Or was the idea just to help clarify your explanation? If so, that makes sense

Regardless, a few things:

1. Many cars now have electric water pumps so stop and go, highway, idling...etc. The flow through the engine of the coolant is the same.

2. Shannow demonstrated, with nothing more than increasing the RPM on the highway, the ability to drive his oil temperature up significantly (driving in a lower gear at the same speed, was actually quite neat).

3. Oil coolers skew all of the above.

4. There are multiple types of fans and fan drives and systems can and often do employ multiple fans and drive types.


EDIT: Saw your edit, and yes, that was my point, because this is a Benz, it may be more like my bimmer and subsequently behave in a manner that isn't typical

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual

Oils withstand much more heat than is subjected in traffic, so that heat isn't concern for UOA. That's what I meant.

Yes, maybe we can set you M5 or a Mercedes, aside...

Agreed on both points. I don't think the temps the OP is seeing should be of any concern.

 

[OVERKILL]

Looked it up:

OP's engine has two pusher electric fans as well as one large clutched mechanical fan, so a very similar arrangement to a bimmer.

The M119 engine appears to have an air/oil cooler for the engine oil behind the front bumper:

Which is different than what BMW does. The above oil cooler is from an R129 (different chassis) but the same engine.

 

[userfriendly]

The next time you are at the coin operated car wash,
hit the rad and oil cooler.

The butterfly effect, a math theory simplified;
Too many butterfly in rad make car overheat.

It is not my place to make an oil recommendation,
but if that was my car driving like you (and I)
in that heat, I would use Delo 400 SAE 40.

 

[Hessam]

I agree.. I used to have a 300E, and it was prone to over heating. I changed to RT6 and stopped having overheating issues. Those engines need a stout oil. OP should consider a 5w-40 HDEO, instead of modern spec euro oils