Here is a long, older post from Berryman, to one of our members.
See answer #1 from Berryman...
Quote:
Hi Guys,
I just found this thread doing a search helping a Caddy owner in Finland to duplicate the B12 chemistry.
Back in January, I was helping the same Caddy owner with an old 472 that I suspected had tons of carbon (seized ring pack and combustion chamber carbon). He has finally done leak down testing which further confirms hung open valves from carbon and most likely a carboned ring pack.
Anyway, I got a back door into Berryman to have a lengthy conversation with their tech who then got me in touch with their Chemist Dan Nowlan. To reproduce the B12 for the guy in Europe to do a piston soak, he basically told me to use 2 parts Tolulene : 1 part Acetone : 1 part MEK which seems consistent to the MSDS.
Here's the string of e-mails with lots of info.
*****************************************************************************
Hello,
I was reading about some of your products on different auto forums that were posted a few years ago. From what I read, I think it was said that 1 of your products no longer listed the "oil crankcase flush" procedure. Which product was that?
I think it was also said; that old product was the same formulation and concentration as the B-12 Chemtool® Carburetor, Fuel System and Injector Cleaner or possibly another product in your current product line. I think maybe they were even referring to the regular Chem Dip or Prof. Chem Dip.
Through the many forums I read; they also made similar reference to performing a piston soak to break down carbon and one of the old Berryman products changed their formulation. It was discussed that the old formulation could be found in a different product in the Berryman line as a substitute....I think?
Does this sound familiar?
Thanks,
Kind Regards,
Chris
***************************************************************************
Hello Chris,
The product that we carry that used to state “in the oil or crankcase” is our B-12 Chemtool fuel additive (part #0116). Although we changed the verbiage on the container, the formula remains the same.
The Chem-Dip product did have a formula change but only in the 1-gallon round can (part #0996). This was done due to regulations at the time but the “old” formula can still be purchased in our 5-gallon container (part #0905) and our 1-gallon replenishment can as well (part #0901).
I hope this helps clarify some of what you heard. If you have any other questions, feel free to give me a call or email us back. Thank you for your interest in our products and have a great day.
Respectfully,
Eddie Torres
Plant Manager
Berryman Products, Inc.
*****************************************************************************
Thanks Eddie,
For many years I've seen the Berryman B12 and never used it and I wish I did due to an engine that had been slightly sludged/heavy varnish due to the use of bad bulk fleet oil in the early 90's that had an unknown problem but it was too late as it sludged an entire fleet of trucks, including my 1991 Cadillac Brougham!
Now I would like to start to use the product in its "original intended use" and maybe try some alternative methods with its use!
#1. So why were the "Oil Flush Instructions" removed from the B12 Chemtool?
There are so many rumors on the internet of why those directions were removed mostly of seized motors from either thinned oil or from too much sludged being removed from an engine which could seem plausible and is also an old rumor with any solvent flush including the use of what the old mechanics did by using 1qt of kerosene or Diesel Fuel per 4qts oil.
#2. Also, what product would you recommend to pour into a plug hole for a long soak period to free a suspected carboned-up ring pack?
GM has a product called "Piston & Ring Cleaner p/n 12378549"I
which has a lengthy TSB for a soak procedure for many GM's like Northstar's, Saturns, ect..
My idea is to use some B12 Chemtool, heat it in a electric coffee pot to 200 F., pour into the plug hole, and allow to soak. While the liquid is hot, put a compression checker into the plug hole, and rotate the engine by hand to TDC and force the cleaner into the ring pack under pressure. As compression falls on the gauge, keep doing it to force the hot cleaner down through the ring pack and add more cleaner for a long soak period of a few days. Also, hook up shop air to the quick disconnect of the compression tester to further force pressurized air into the ring pack while at TDC.
#3. I see from the MSDS that the Flash Point for the B12 is: "
I see the Boiling Range: 133-230°F (approximate).
My thoughts are that hot solvent will work with better efficiency to break down and completely dissolve????? the carbon and free the suspected carboned up ring pack.
#4. Has heating B12 to dissolve carbon ever been tested in your labs?
Since the old oil flush directions for the B12 Chemtool were " add the product to cold oil", I guess the chemicals quickly flash-off and evaporate as the oil temp rises within 5-10 min.
#5. Is that right and the reason/rational to add to cold oil or could there be an ignition of the product if spilled onto a hot manifold when the engine is hot?
I did find this on your site from the "Chemtooller":
" Only by a knowledgeable professional. With advances in electronic management systems in cars produced the last 15-20 years, Berryman no longer recommends this application in the hands of “Do-It-Yourselfers” without the proper equipment to protect electronic sensors and computers."
#6. Can you tell me the specifics of the above bulletin ?
And this from another forum:
"the directions on the back say - Chemtool B-12 vaporizes immediately to clean all internal engine surfaces, dissolving gum and varnish"
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/88498-chemtool-b-12-oil-change.html
#7. What temps is the B12 Chemtool stable at before evaporation or whatever the term is?
#8. Also, I am helping a Cadillac Forum member who is in Finland Europe. Is the B12 Chemtool available in Europe or under a different private label there?
Your advice and guidance is greatly appreciated,
Kind Regards,
Chris
****************************************************************************
FROM CHEMIST AT BERRYMAN:
Hi Chris,
See comments to your questions above:
Because B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment (part #s 0116 and 0101) contains 100% strong solvent rather than detergents or weak carriers and diluents, it is quite a versatile product….
1) If you want an engine oil flush, then you can use part # 0116. Pour into your cold crankcase approximately 1½ oz. of B-12 per quart of oil capacity. For instance, if your vehicle holds 5 quarts of oil, then you would use 7.5 oz. of B-12 or about half of one can. After you’ve added it to your cold oil, start the car and run it at idle 10-15 minutes until it’s warmed up. Then change the spent oil and replace the filter.
2) Regarding the piston soak, if your rings are good, you may be able to use B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment for that application, too. The amount of product and soak duration will vary based on cylinder orientation, degree of carbonaceous deposits, piston ring function, etc. In Cadillac a V motor with a bore of about 3¾”, you’ll need about 400 mL (13½ fl oz) per cylinder to cover the entire piston. If the rings will hold the product in place, I would soak for a few to several hours and drain. Repeat if necessary. You can try rotating the motor by hand and pressurizing, but it shouldn’t be necessary. Also, do not heat the product to 200°F. The boiling point on some of these solvents is well under that temperature.
3) The auto-ignition temperature of B-12 has not been tested, but the lowest auto-ignition temperature of a major component in B-12 is 725°F. A composite value would be about 900°F. Again, I would not recommend heating the product, not above maybe 90-100°F anyway.
4) B-12 has not been tested at elevated temperatures because it is so effective at ambient temperatures, even on hard carbon. The old directions for engine oil flushing indicated to add it to cold oil so that it has the maximum time to work. It does not take long before the oil has become warm enough to start flashing off the solvents.
5) That statement from our website refers to the fact that some sensors are quite delicate and the strong solvents in B-12 may not always be compatible. Because we cannot know about every sensor on the market, customers are advised to check internet forums for their vehicle and specifically for the task they wish to undertake in order to see if other owners have had issues with the use of cleaning chemicals and, if so, which seem to be the “culprits.”
6) As previously noted, the boiling point of B-12 is rather low. While it starts out liquid in the cold crankcase to dissolve gum and sludge on everything exposed to the oil, its heated vapor can act as a “steam cleaner” for all exposed surfaces throughout the crankcase above the oil until expelled via the PCV valve.
7) Open containers of B-12 will evaporate at any temperature above probably -20°F. Slow evaporation will occur above about 40-50°F, moderate evaporation will occur above about 70-80°F, and marked evaporation will occur above 100°F, especially as it approaches the boiling point of acetone (133°F).
8) I do not know of any sources of B-12 in Europe. We do not private label either.
Thanks for your interest and good luck!
Dan
*************************************************************************************
SO THAT'S BASICALLY EVERYTHING REGARDING OUR E-MAILS.....
-I still have some notes from when I spoke to the chemist "Dan" at Berryman, he said they also make a Combustion Chamber Cleaner #2610
-He also said the Total Fuel System Cleaner #2616 is stronger to be added to the tank.....I THINK.... and said to only use it 2 times per oil change. I'll ask him again and post back.
-The crankcase dilution rate for the #0116 is 1.5oz to 1 qt oil and let idle and not rev the motor because the chemicals will evaporate faster as the engine heats up.
-I told him somewhere I read about I think a BMW forum user who used up to 4oz of B12 Chemtool to 1 gal. fuel for some noticable performance.
-Dan said, it can be used like that without a problem of around 1 can to 5 gallons but the recommended dose is 1oz / 1 gal. of gas every 3 tanks to either clean the combustion chambers and/or to keep them clean.
Well, I hope this helps. I've been having some long terhm health problems sick and can't really do the experiment I've been wanting to do using both the Berryman B12 Chemtool along with a Kreen treatment. That's my plans some day, and I want to document it by pulling the valve cover on my 91 Brougham/305 chevy with around 125k miles and hopefully post pictures........
Regards,
Chris
thumbsup
