Relationship between auto mfg. & oil companies?

[Ed_Flecko]

I'm trying to understand the relationship between auto manufacturers and oil companies. What I'm specifically wondering is what role the auto manufacturer plays in dictating new motor oil development.

I've read that when some manufacturers design/build new motors, they determine through engineering the characteristics a given oil must possess in order to maintain normal operation of the motor they've designed? Is this right? So, I'm guessing, they "design" an oil for their motor through engineering their own special concoction? It also seems like, from what I've read, some manufacturers (BMW comes to mind) have the most stringent requirements of approved motor oils. I'm guessing that's because they design their motors to be pushed hard (and many people do)?

Maybe putting it another way, do the motor oil companies "take their marching orders" from the car manufacturers, or is more the other way around?

Thank you,
Ed

 

[Quattro Pete]

In more recent past, it has typically been the engine manufacturers that come up with oil specifications that the oil manufacturers have to meet.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In more recent past, it has typically been the engine manufacturers that come up with oil specifications that the oil manufacturers have to meet.


Thanks Pete!

So the current SN standard probably came from a car manufacturer developing an oil with characteristics that were not, at that time, available in a commercial motor oil?

Ed

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In more recent past, it has typically been the engine manufacturers that come up with oil specifications that the oil manufacturers have to meet.


Thanks Pete!

So the current SN standard probably came from a car manufacturer developing an oil with characteristics that were not, at that time, available in a commercial motor oil?

Ed


No. While there are inputs from the manufacturers as part of the API protocols, I believe Pete is talking more about the more stringent OEM approvals like 229.5, LL-01...etc. Even DEXOS is more demanding than SN, as are the Ford WSS-xx specs.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
So the current SN standard probably came from a car manufacturer

Actually, no. SN came from the oil industry, but it is considered inadequate by many engine manufacturers, so they came up with their own more rigorous performance standards that far exceed SN.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I believe Pete is talking more about the more stringent OEM approvals like 229.5, LL-01...etc. Even DEXOS is more demanding than SN, as are the Ford WSS-xx specs.

Yes sir. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[spk2000]

Engine manufacturers can ask but if technology is not there yet they may have to wait on the oil companies to develop their wished if it is even feasible.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: spk2000
Engine manufacturers can ask but if technology is not there yet they may have to wait on the oil companies to develop their wished if it is even feasible.


Which is why the manufacturers team up with companies like XOM to develop the specs in concert. That's the reason the Nissan GT-R specs M1 0w-40, why M1 5w-30 was the first and only oil for quite a while to carry Honda's HTO-06 spec....etc.

 

[FutureDoc]

Keep in mind that it is often the oil company that is the more powerful of the two organizations.

As far as this case, it is a doubled edged sword. Dexos is a money grab but some performance engines might produce conditions that exceed common motor oil... but that being said, do you really need HTO-06 in a 1998 Honda Accord? With vehicles having longer service lives, the wide range of oil, it is not surprising that the difference between the standard SN that work for a 1992 Dodge Truck and requirements for the modern 400bph+ hyper care would be different

 

[A_Harman]

The oil companies and auto manufacturers work together through the API and SAE. Representatives of both sit on the committees that develop future specifications. By the time an oil specification is published for the public, the OE's and oil companies have basically figured out the engine specifications and oil formulations. This basic work is done in the advanced development phase which is 5-6 years ahead of scheduled production. If a development engineer at an auto company has a need for special oil, or wants to test a lower viscosity grade, they call advanced development engineers at an oil company (Mobil, Shell, Castrol, etc), gives them the desired specifications, gets a quote, and buys a batch.

At the same time, lubricant engineers at the oil company are developing new additive technologies and testing them in current production engines at their own facilities. If they develop something new, they will visit the OEM's and make a presentation of the new technology to (hopefully) a design responsible engineer that has a use for it.

Oil is actually one of the easier (lower cost, shorter lead time) experimental items to buy for a test program. It's a walk in the park compared to an engine block or crankshaft.

A lot of technologies get tested at all engine manufacturers that don't reach production. It's not that they don't work, it's just that they don't necesarily fit the overall set of characteristics the OEM is trying build into their engine, or they may be more expensive than competing technologies that achieve the same performance objective.

 

[supercity]

I'm not sure how it works in North America but in Europe the ACEA literally is the "European Automobile Manufacturers Association".

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In more recent past, it has typically been the engine manufacturers that come up with oil specifications that the oil manufacturers have to meet.


Thanks Pete!

So the current SN standard probably came from a car manufacturer developing an oil with characteristics that were not, at that time, available in a commercial motor oil?

Ed


No. While there are inputs from the manufacturers as part of the API protocols, I believe Pete is talking more about the more stringent OEM approvals like 229.5, LL-01...etc. Even DEXOS is more demanding than SN, as are the Ford WSS-xx specs.


So the occasional claim about oil being blended to a price point is wrong?