Larger Filters? Good or bad?

[Sayjac]

^^^^True. The filter warranty will be invalid.

That said, the Fram rep commenting the correct filter application is the first thing checked with a filter claim, then later said he uses the upsize 7317 (3/4 - 1" longer but same specs) in his personal Nissan Z instead of the Nissan spec shorty 6607/14612 application.

 

[goodtimes]

Back to reality, and out of never to happen courts of law, and imaginary easy payments from oil filter companies, according to some theories a more plugged and dirty oil filter filters better. So a small filter always filters better, according to the theory. Cut it open and if it still looks good, try to get a smaller filter that fits on the thread next time.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Back to reality, and out of never to happen courts of law, and imaginary easy payments from oil filter companies, according to some theories a more plugged and dirty oil filter filters better. So a small filter always filters better, according to the theory. Cut it open and if it still looks good, try to get a smaller filter that fits on the thread next time.


That's not true for filters that operate under pressure. It is true for air filters.

 

[Virtuoso]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
^^^^True. The filter warranty will be invalid.

That said, the Fram rep commenting the correct filter application is the first thing checked with a filter claim, then later said he uses the upsize 7317 (3/4 - 1" longer but same specs) in his personal Nissan Z instead of the Nissan spec shorty 6607/14612 application.


This is the one of the reasons I stick with stock size. Very improbable, but absolutely still possible. I've also cut open lots of filters, and never felt that size was the issue. Poor engineering/media/assembly, perhaps.
I can only imagine how many times xx amount of oil is filtered through the filter during my 35 mile commute. Modern oils and engines just don't leave enough stuff to warrant huge filters anymore.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Back to reality, and out of never to happen courts of law, and imaginary easy payments from oil filter companies, according to some theories a more plugged and dirty oil filter filters better. So a small filter always filters better, according to the theory. Cut it open and if it still looks good, try to get a smaller filter that fits on the thread next time.


That's not true for filters that operate under pressure. It is true for air filters.


Why not?

 

[SHOZ]

The filter media under pressure will force the bypass valve open or push the particulates through it or rupture the media as it clogs up. An air filter that is under vacuum would not.

 

[00Max00]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Back to reality, and out of never to happen courts of law, and imaginary easy payments from oil filter companies, according to some theories a more plugged and dirty oil filter filters better. So a small filter always filters better, according to the theory. Cut it open and if it still looks good, try to get a smaller filter that fits on the thread next time.


Small filter filters "better" by restricting oil flow? Bypass valve would open more often especially during cold starts. Doesn't this eliminate the benefit of filters-better?

If dirty oil filters do better work, you can always use the bigger one for longer interval and get the same benefit?

 

[goodtimes]

I
Originally Posted By: 00Max00
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Back to reality, and out of never to happen courts of law, and imaginary easy payments from oil filter companies, according to some theories a more plugged and dirty oil filter filters better. So a small filter always filters better, according to the theory. Cut it open and if it still looks good, try to get a smaller filter that fits on the thread next time.


Small filter filters "better" by restricting oil flow? Bypass valve would open more often especially during cold starts. Doesn't this eliminate the benefit of filters-better?

If dirty oil filters do better work, you can always use the bigger one for longer interval and get the same benefit?


It's not my theory that used oil filters filter better than new. Specified small filters don't flow too little, they flow plenty. Not talking about plugged filters. You want a dirty, but good flowing still, filter, by the theory. A bigger filter is less efficient until it is left on a longer time. Meanwhile right out of the gate the tiny but mighty filter is ahead in the efficiency race. If both are changed at 10k miles, tiny filter wins in a good condition engine. According to the theory. Not trolling, I actually am trying to understand why promoted ideas conflict.

 

[Virtuoso]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The filter media under pressure will force the bypass valve open or push the particulates through it or rupture the media as it clogs up. An air filter that is under vacuum would not.


I guess I doubt particles are being forced through the media on an uncompromised filter, as that would make it worthless, no?

I'll try to dig up an article from one of the filter manufactures I read a while back, dealing with the differences between single-pass and multi-pass ratings. They stated that a filter's efficiency does change over time as it loads up.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
I'll try to dig up an article from one of the filter manufactures I read a while back, dealing with the differences between single-pass and multi-pass ratings. They stated that a filter's efficiency does change over time as it loads up.


I exchanged emails with an engineer at Purolator a few years ago, and he said the efficiency curve (at least for Purolators) is shaped like a hockey stick.

o
.o
..o
...o
....o.......................o
.....o..................o
.......o..............o
..........o........o
............o...o



In other words, it starts out pretty efficient, then drops down some as time goes on, then the efficiency starts rising again towards the end of the filter's life.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The filter media under pressure will force the bypass valve open or push the particulates through it or rupture the media as it clogs up. An air filter that is under vacuum would not.


I guess I doubt particles are being forced through the media on an uncompromised filter, as that would make it worthless, no?

I'll try to dig up an article from one of the filter manufactures I read a while back, dealing with the differences between single-pass and multi-pass ratings. They stated that a filter's efficiency does change over time as it loads up.

That's the kind of information needed. They publish one efficiency rating, presumably for the whole multi pass test. They need to devise more tests that are more akin to real world engine use. I don't think engines get so much added dirt these days. The density of oil makes it push harder compared to air. Stand in a 40 mph wind then stand under water against a 40mph flow. You may wedge between two rocks in the river but you can be dislodged and swept on too, especially if the river presses on you harder as time goes on.
It's all pretty complicated and I probably should be satisfied with my Denso, Ultra stash and my two Microgreen filters coming soon. As long as they stay intact inside should be enough to know about oil filters. I don't think I am going to be happy about one thing with the Microgreens, I read others got made in China although website says North American facility. That's a little deceptive if true, have to wait and see what I get. Not that it can't be very high quality from a China North American factory, but I have a thing about supporting them for several reasons, big reasons.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Everything always depends on the application.

In some, oversized is needed.
In some, oversized is beneficial.
In others, oversized is not available.
In others, oversized doesn't even need to be considered.
Research your lemon for common engine family issues and decide for yourself if the automaker was looking out for you, or their bottom line.

Warranty fears? Never crossed my mind. As with ANY mod, the risk is always the owners'. Keep a correct PN in the trunk for a swap before the tow.

Engineers make mistakes. And, there is a budget that is always involved in ANY and ALL decisions. As such, I don't care to hear ANYTHING recommended from any automaker unless they can answer WHY without gobbledygook...that mumbling nonsense which 99% of brainwashed or reduced braincell consumers would be perfectly happy with.

My favorite automaker engineer response to a smaller oil filter was.... packaging...made it easier to install drivetrain on the assembly line.

My 2nd most favorite automaker response to smaller oil filter... cheaper... more filters per truck/train load and less loads was a good bonus for creative cost cutting.

Automakers get confused with oil change intervals, oil grades, filters, filter sizes.... If they can't make up a so-called educated choice, feel free to do it yourself.

Every engine that I have where I can upsize, I always do.

What I see on the internet auto forums is that many live in fear... of warranty denial, fear of failures..... pretty pathetic. Try to live without negatives.

 

[Virtuoso]

Nothing wrong with using the spec'd size oil filter for whatever reason you choose.

 

[Stewie]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Everything always depends on the application.

In some, oversized is needed.
In some, oversized is beneficial.
In others, oversized is not available.
In others, oversized doesn't even need to be considered.
Research your lemon for common engine family issues and decide for yourself if the automaker was looking out for you, or their bottom line.

Warranty fears? Never crossed my mind. As with ANY mod, the risk is always the owners'. Keep a correct PN in the trunk for a swap before the tow.

Engineers make mistakes. And, there is a budget that is always involved in ANY and ALL decisions. As such, I don't care to hear ANYTHING recommended from any automaker unless they can answer WHY without gobbledygook...that mumbling nonsense which 99% of brainwashed or reduced braincell consumers would be perfectly happy with.

My favorite automaker engineer response to a smaller oil filter was.... packaging...made it easier to install drivetrain on the assembly line.

My 2nd most favorite automaker response to smaller oil filter... cheaper... more filters per truck/train load and less loads was a good bonus for creative cost cutting.

Automakers get confused with oil change intervals, oil grades, filters, filter sizes.... If they can't make up a so-called educated choice, feel free to do it yourself.

Every engine that I have where I can upsize, I always do.

What I see on the internet auto forums is that many live in fear... of warranty denial, fear of failures..... pretty pathetic. Try to live without negatives.

Warranty issue is a real thing.

If your engine or tranny fails then you are out of luck b/c of using non standard parts.

 

[Garak]

It may be a real thing. I prefer the specified part. But, it's an extremely rare issue. As I've stated before, one of the reasons I'll upsize is if the regular part isn't in stock. To me, the warranty issue isn't worth going on an oil filter hunt.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Garak
It may be a real thing..... But, it's an extremely rare issue.....

That about covers it.

However, when it comes to the 6607/14612 application to the 7317/14610 and their SAE cousins 4967/14476 to the 4386/14477, I consider it a sensible upsize. Same specs, just somewhat longer and more media area. In other words, I have no problem using the upsize there. Just me.

 

[Garak]

I just wish that the G37 called for the 57356 instead of the 51358. Some Infiniti models call for the longer one, and realistically, there's no reason to specify the smaller one on the G37 (especially with that nitrile ADBV compared to the silicone on the 57356). There is absolutely no shortage of space. As I've stated before, I could fit two 57356 filters welded end to end in there and have room, even with a sandwich adapter for an auxiliary cooler.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I just wish that the G37 called for the 57356 instead of the 51358. Some Infiniti models call for the longer one, and realistically, there's no reason to specify the smaller one on the G37 (especially with that nitrile ADBV compared to the silicone on the 57356). There is absolutely no shortage of space. As I've stated before, I could fit two 57356 filters welded end to end in there and have room, even with a sandwich adapter for an auxiliary cooler.

Good points. Nissan/Infiniti seems odd when it comes to specing the shorty 6607/14612/51358 when I've not seen or read about an application where the longer 7317/14610/57356 wouldn't fit.

As for the 51358 using a nitrile adbv, don't get that. The 57356 when introduced started with a nitrile adbv and dome bypass. But rather quickly went to a silicone adbv and later to Wix traditional thread end bypass. I'm currently running a silicone, dome end bypass version.

But I get those wanting to run the spec filter and keep the filter warranty. Think especially while under vehicle warranty it is a more significant consideration. Outside vehicle warranty, not as much.

 

[Garak]

With the 57356, I recall the discussion here about the change from nitrile to silicone some time back. I assumed the same thing would happen to the 51358. Of course, that hasn't happened. Maybe I should email them and ask them about it.

I'm not particularly worried about nitrile versus silicone or a bit of a difference in length, although, as you indicate, it is a bit puzzling with Nissan/Infiniti specifying the short filter with no obvious space issues in any of these applications. What bugs me is that the 51358 is more money than the previously specified 51365 (short with silicone), which was more money than the 51356 (long with silicone). With the Hastings, the oversized filter is a $1 cheaper than the specified filter, too, for some odd reason.

I'm not sure what the 57356 is going for. I do have a couple 51358 filters in stock, so I won't be finding out too soon, either. I'm not even sure which end the bypass is in the 51358. I never bothered to look.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: revrnd
The 2014 Silverado 2500HD w/ a 6L uses the small PF48 while the 2014 Silverado w/ the 5.3L uses the long PF63.

Any ideas why the egineers would specify 2 different filters for basically the same motor in very similar placements? I've got a 2011 2500HD & there definitely isn't any clearance issues.
I believe the 2014 5.3 is a different engine. Specs 0w20 and higher flow oil pump.

The larger filter on the 5.3 is to catch all the additional wear particles from the eco swill 0w20.

 

[ltslimjim]

Just throwing something out here: The basic recommended oil filters provided via cross-references; in other words each oil filter manufacturer's "recommended" filter, for each app tend to cover a wide range of vehicles.

Take this and consider that each of these filters cross-referrenced may have size variations between THEMSELVES, let alone the original factory branded filter.

Therefore, if a larger filter is not too wide at the gasket or small and also has the room to be installed (without worry of specific concerns such as lower to the road etc) then how is that much different from the variations between the recommended aftermarket oil filter sizes to begin with? I just changed my oil on the new Fit the other day. M1-110 EP oil filter a good inch or so longer than the entry level filter that came off. (similar to a MicroGard or Pro Tec, STP sized tiny filter etc)

Technically, I just got a larger filter. Vs OE? Idk the size of the OE filter for these off hand, but if it was a such a big deal between size ALONE (all else being equal) wouldn't you think the differences would not exist in the first place?

The only difference; as long as the bypass valve psi is rated the same as the OE range, would be that it's "recommended" for your car technically simply because they must recommend one "closest" to the factory OF?

The difference is technically only more media/filtration surface area and is 'not' recommended because there is simply another part# they have specified for you vehicle.

How is running it risky at all outside of the unlikely event there is a failure that ruins the engine (subsequent legal battle) ?