The Evolution of Vehicular Needs

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With the right car, even steering lazily into a long sweeping curve in the highway at normal-person speeds can be rewarding. Good steering feedback alone can inject fun into a boring drive, regardless of the speed limit.

The right car can also make everyday moments at everyday speeds into genuine events. A lane change maneuver in a Camry is just floating over until you're between a different set of lines. The same thing at the same speed in a Civic Si or Mazda 3 (let alone anything actually sporty) is something you wouldn't mind doing again.

The more you drive, the more important it should be to have a car you enjoy driving.
 
That's why I added the rear swaybar to the Focus. Does make it a bit more fun to drive every day.

And under $100 total cost ... much cheaper than buying a sporty car.
 
I did that, and I got tired of being worried about the cost of it breaking. My Jetta remains the best clutch and trans and engine setup I have driven. Ever. Fine, I have not driven Mazda, nor MB, nor BMW, nor a bunch of things I can't afford. My Jetta was and still is the car I enjoy most.

I also have never had a problem with economy 185 nor 195 tires. I do not understand how going to wider/lower profile tires will save me in the wallet. If a base suspension setup has served me well all these years, do I really need more? Trust me, I can keep up with most MA traffic just fine. If a 195 tire can't handle the lane change,then it's not the tire that needs changing.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
With the right car, even steering lazily into a long sweeping curve in the highway at normal-person speeds can be rewarding. Good steering feedback alone can inject fun into a boring drive, regardless of the speed limit.

The right car can also make everyday moments at everyday speeds into genuine events. A lane change maneuver in a Camry is just floating over until you're between a different set of lines. The same thing at the same speed in a Civic Si or Mazda 3 (let alone anything actually sporty) is something you wouldn't mind doing again.

The more you drive, the more important it should be to have a car you enjoy driving.

Personally I find though its fun to drive a slow car fast too, and its easier/safer to get some slip angles going with a non sporty car without attracting attention. The old Focus wagon is surprisingly neutral and the mediocre all seasons stay quiet and don't out grip the suspension. It doesn't have razor sharp steering, but it works well enough and lets you know what going on.
For autocross I'd get annoyed with it for sure, but for brisk road driving, its fine.
 
Here's what I really wanted to post earlier (edit time expired).

I see what some of you are saying about cost per mile. I feel it myself -- my current car raised my tire expenses by 25% and my per-month fuel costs by almost 50%, and that definitely weighs on me. I find taking public transit is often easier for me even when it's a little more expensive in reality, just because I don't have to think about a fun drive being tainted by running costs.

Here's what I think is missing: Having fun in no way requires breaking the speed limit, pulling big lateral Gs, or spending a lot of money. A legitimately fun street car is one that turns ordinary moments into events you actually look forward to, and there are legitimately fun street cars at any price point.

I mentioned the steering feedback thing. Here's a similar one: Proper throttle response and good engine sound make normal acceleration fun, even with low horsepower. Just getting back up to speed after a normal slowdown becomes an event, even if you're not actually doing it any faster.

If you have good brakes and good suspension damping, normal stops and turns make you feel safe, assured, and capable. If you don't, you're lucky if stopping and turning just feels neutral; often it feels scary.

Those are just a few examples. The mix of preferences will be different for everyone (e.g. some people prefer outright acceleration or a smooth ride), but the point is the same: if you pay attention to the experience rather than ending your inquiry at the balance sheet or the walk-up, you can get a LOT out of your car even if you're driving it like everyone else. And the beauty is that you don't even need a legit sports car to experience any of this. What I described is available in cars like the Mazda 3 and Civic Si. The Subaru WRX and Ford Mustang offer different mixes for similar prices. And so on. Given those options, intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.

As for the mileage proposition: again, the more you drive, the more important it should be to have a car you enjoy driving. Doing miles in an uninspiring A-to-B commuter is something you put up with and hope it doesn't hurt you too much. Doing the same thing in an engaging, rewarding car -- whatever that might mean for you personally -- is something you might actually look forward to. When you multiply that difference by all the time you spend in the car, it quickly adds up to a big difference in your quality of life.
 
I hear you doodfood, and I agree. I did exactly that on my Jetta, the exact car I wanted. Everything new is now a letdown, everything I test drove does not compare, and reviews of cars I did not test do not indicate anything better.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Here's what I think is missing: Having fun in no way requires breaking the speed limit, pulling big lateral Gs, or spending a lot of money. A legitimately fun street car is one that turns ordinary moments into events you actually look forward to, and there are legitimately fun street cars at any price point.


That is what makes the Mirage fun for me to drive! Wind it up, rip through the gears, run it full throttle and ... you're only going 45 ...
 
Originally Posted By: supton
I hear you doodfood, and I agree. I did exactly that on my Jetta, the exact car I wanted. Everything new is now a letdown, everything I test drove does not compare, and reviews of cars I did not test do not indicate anything better.

Perfect example.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


Here's what I think is missing: Having fun in no way requires breaking the speed limit, pulling big lateral Gs, or spending a lot of money. A legitimately fun street car is one that turns ordinary moments into events you actually look forward to, and there are legitimately fun street cars at any price point.


That is what makes the Mirage fun for me to drive! Wind it up, rip through the gears, run it full throttle and ... you're only going 45 ...

Exactly!

So many modern cars are the opposite -- they feel slower than they are, and they're boring until you're going felony speeds. What a terrible idea for a street car!
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The mix of preferences will be different for everyone...


Yes!

Which means...the following sort of contradicts the preceding...right?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.


What does "boring" mean?

The term "boring" is both qualitative and relative, making it rather meaningless without a lot of context to go along with it.

Example: I once owned a 2001 Cadillac STS. Pretty neat car on paper. Fast-horse engine, large and comfortable cabin, relatively good handling numbers, etc. But the experience you mentioned in your post wasn't there. The steering was incredibly numb (and very boosted). Not only that, but its Magnasteer variable effort unit was real twitchy in a sweeping corner where small steering corrections were spooky. The ride was not terribly good, but neither was its handling -- it was a car that was trying really hard to be something it wasn't.

I traded that car directly for a Toyota Corolla. Literally -- went from a Cadillac to a Corolla in about 2 hours at a Toyota dealer one day. The Corolla had a 5-speed, which does help. But it also had a an honest small-car chassis that genuinely had a fast response compared with the STS. You could toss that car into any corner and it'd stick (with the Yokohamas I had on it). It was very neutral in transitions and a genuine joy to drive.

The point that we both make is that you don't have to have a fast car to enjoy driving and you don't have to have a certain marque to enjoy driving. I'd take that a step further and say that EVERY car out there, whether any one person feels it's "boring" or not, will be pleasurable for someone to drive.

Labeling something as "boring" or as "an appliance" (as is often done on BITOG) commits the trespass you mentioned in one of your paragraphs (if you meant what I think you did by it):

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
if you pay attention to the experience rather than ending your inquiry at the balance sheet or the walk-up, you can get a LOT out of your car even if you're driving it like everyone else.


In other words (again, if you meant what I think you did), don't judge a book by its cover, and don't assume that everyone else will get the same level or type of enjoyment out of something that you did.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The mix of preferences will be different for everyone...


Yes!

Which means...the following sort of contradicts the preceding...right?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.

Not in this context, because I was responding to people who seem to agree that the cars they're proposing aren't any fun.

Also, I never said there are infinite possibilities. I'm not aware of any definition of fun that would rank a Prius, Camry, or Venza higher than the kinds of cars I've mentioned.

But hey, if OP honestly thinks a Prius/Camry/Venza is fun from moment to moment... he'd be literally the first such person I've ever encountered, and I'd love to have a chat with him about how on earth that's even possible, but more power to him.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The mix of preferences will be different for everyone...


Yes!

Which means...the following sort of contradicts the preceding...right?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.

Not in this context, because I was responding to people who seem to agree that the cars they're proposing aren't any fun.

Also, I never said there are infinite possibilities. I'm not aware of any definition of fun that would rank a Prius, Camry, or Venza higher than the kinds of cars I've mentioned.

But hey, if OP honestly thinks a Prius/Camry/Venza is fun from moment to moment... he'd be literally the first such person I've ever encountered, and I'd love to have a chat with him about how on earth that's even possible, but more power to him.

My Dad liked the 2012ish rental Camry, said it felt light and agile, and good power. So coming from his 4x4 5.4L 2003 F150, the Camry was sort of fun to rip around in.
Usually the rentals seem to get a big GM fwd car and while nice, they don't feel agile.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I never said there are infinite possibilities.


I felt you did when you said, "the mix of preferences will be different for everyone."

And I agree with that statement. If we restrict the meaning of "fun" to only a certain range of behavior, we take away someone else's mix of preferences that might be different from ours.
 
I love how everything is sporty now.

"My 86 year old mom just got a new minivan, wow that thing is so sporty!!!!!"

No, just because they put an unnecessarily big engine in a small vehicle doesn't make it capable of anything.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I never said there are infinite possibilities.


I felt you did when you said, "the mix of preferences will be different for everyone."

I know you felt that. I'm saying that's not the plain meaning of those words.
wink.gif
 
Fun to drive is top down on a warm sunny afternoon on winding mountain road.

In So Cal, we go to Lake Elsinore on Ortega Hwy(CA-74) once in while on warm sunny weekend afternoons in S2000 with top down. Having dinner there then went home under the moon shinning with cool air over our head but warm air on the feet. There is no funner drive in a small 2-seat convertible on winding mountain road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_74
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The mix of preferences will be different for everyone...


Yes!

Which means...the following sort of contradicts the preceding...right?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.

Not in this context, because I was responding to people who seem to agree that the cars they're proposing aren't any fun.

Also, I never said there are infinite possibilities. I'm not aware of any definition of fun that would rank a Prius, Camry, or Venza higher than the kinds of cars I've mentioned.

But hey, if OP honestly thinks a Prius/Camry/Venza is fun from moment to moment... he'd be literally the first such person I've ever encountered, and I'd love to have a chat with him about how on earth that's even possible, but more power to him.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The mix of preferences will be different for everyone...


Yes!

Which means...the following sort of contradicts the preceding...right?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...intentionally buying something boring for the same price doesn't make any sense to me.

Not in this context, because I was responding to people who seem to agree that the cars they're proposing aren't any fun.

Also, I never said there are infinite possibilities. I'm not aware of any definition of fun that would rank a Prius, Camry, or Venza higher than the kinds of cars I've mentioned.

But hey, if OP honestly thinks a Prius/Camry/Venza is fun from moment to moment... he'd be literally the first such person I've ever encountered, and I'd love to have a chat with him about how on earth that's even possible, but more power to him.


I own a Honda insight. On paper this thing should blow. 60 HP engine 13 HP motor, 2 seater, 3cyl of fury. But even the lrr tires grip well, narrow as the suspention is itfeels lively, the motor kicks in like a supercharger and feels fun. its even quick.
There is also the mpg game. The insight is the razors edge of fuel efficiency. Its a mind game to get peak fuel eco.
Its a lot of fun to drive
 
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the interesting and lively discussion, the recommendations, et cetera.

Unfortunately my wife's car, the Infiniti in my signature, was flooded rather significantly back in Houston. We are at a campsite on the beach in California (Anchor Beach if you've ever heard of it), so I've been going back and forth with the insurance company from 2k miles away. Needless to say, our vehicular needs have evolved yet again, this time rather drastically! So now we are shopping for 2 vehicles, the "better" one for her, and the "commuter" one for me. Also, the budget is out the window. Bummer, but life goes on.

Standby for a new thread with two different sets of parameters.
 
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully the insurance company takes care of you.

Bummer of a thing to deal with while on vacation.
 
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