Poor Hybrid sales threaten 2025 CAFE targets

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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: grampi

The people that are wasteful are those who buy something like an F-350 because they need it to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, but then they use it as an every day driver...that's ridiculous...


Wasteful of what? In economics, waste implies there is a shortage, so what shortage are you talking about that is being wasted? Some of us get stuff like F-250 / F-350 and never tow anything like a 5th wheel RV or gooseneck trailer. We need more than the typical 1/2 ton pickup to haul occasionally what we do though. And our 3/4 or 1 ton pickups are also our normal everyday vehicles. Take a Prius up and down my road after a rainstorm or winter storm and you will park it in town and put a "For Sale" sign in the window real quick. That is, after you walk back to the house and get the ag tractor to pull your Prius out of the mud or snow.

George Carlin got it right a long time ago....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tncnWp67wQI


Again, this is another example of what I'm NOT talking about...someone using a pickup to get down a road that is impassable by anything less is using that vehicle for it's intended purpose...I'm talking about people who buy an F-350 because they need to tow once or twice a year, and the rest of the time they use that very same vehicle to drive back and forth to work on roads that are passable with any vehicle...THAT is wasteful...
 
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!




Why do you people have to label everyone who isn't exactly like you? Did you ever stop and think that these people may simply want to spend less money on gas?


Less money on gas but much more money on buying the Hybrid.


Not really...hybrids aren't all that expensive anymore...
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!




Why do you people have to label everyone who isn't exactly like you? Did you ever stop and think that these people may simply want to spend less money on gas?


Less money on gas but much more money on buying the Hybrid.


You are out of touch. The cost of most Hybrids are nearly the same as their conventional cousins.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: lovcom


It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and evironment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.

The dumbest are those that drive Dodge Chargers, with the big 21" rims.

Study demographics and you will see this too.


I work in healthcare. I don't know a single doctor that drives a Hybrid. Nobody in my family drives a hybrid. Now unless you are attempting to posit that cardiac surgery isn't an advanced degree, or radiology, or a PhD in mathematics, I think it may be wise to consider that this information that has been "scientifically shown" may be of the agenda driven type. People drive what they like.

Also, food for thought: There are a number of Engineers on this board as well as many with others types of advanced degrees. If we were to look at the cross-section of Engineers and those with other advanced degrees and what they drive, how many of them do you think drive hybrids?

We could twist this around and say that driving a Hybrid doesn't magically increase your intelligence or save the planet. The people I know that are of the extremely intelligent type don't seem to care a whole heck of a lot about their "green image". Instead the focus is more about their careers and family as well as providing real aide like going overseas to provide medical assistance in war-torn or poverty stricken nations. And then they come home and drive around in their Mercedes, Land Rover, BMW or Suburban.

In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Your anger problem is showing again.
 
Originally Posted By: lovcom

You are out of touch. The cost of most Hybrids are nearly the same as their conventional cousins.


Unless you drive huge miles (25-30K/year or more) or gas prices skyrocket ($4+/gallon), a hybrid is a money loser. The ROI just isn't there.
 
Another thing to consider is battery replacement. Toyota gives them a 10 yr avg and a replacement cost of $2500-3000. Toyota concedes that the cost of replacement will drive most customers to trade their car in on a new car. The owner will likely get a low trade in value on a car that needs close to $3000 worth of batteries. Then the dealer would replace the batteries and either they will eat the cost or pass at least part of it on down to the used car buyer in which case makes them look a lot less attractive compared to a similarly aged vehicle. Either way its an added expense that someone will have to eat.
 
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Another thing to consider is battery replacement. Toyota gives them a 10 yr avg and a replacement cost of $2500-3000. Toyota concedes that the cost of replacement will drive most customers to trade their car in on a new car. The owner will likely get a low trade in value on a car that needs close to $3000 worth of batteries. Then the dealer would replace the batteries and either they will eat the cost or pass at least part of it on down to the used car buyer in which case makes them look a lot less attractive compared to a similarly aged vehicle. Either way its an added expense that someone will have to eat.


Which has turned out to be wrong. The cost of a replacement refurbished Prius battery is much less than this ~ <$1k.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Another thing to consider is battery replacement. Toyota gives them a 10 yr avg and a replacement cost of $2500-3000. Toyota concedes that the cost of replacement will drive most customers to trade their car in on a new car. The owner will likely get a low trade in value on a car that needs close to $3000 worth of batteries. Then the dealer would replace the batteries and either they will eat the cost or pass at least part of it on down to the used car buyer in which case makes them look a lot less attractive compared to a similarly aged vehicle. Either way its an added expense that someone will have to eat.


Which has turned out to be wrong. The cost of a replacement refurbished Prius battery is much less than this ~ div>


There's new batteries and there's reman batteries. Reman are in the ballpark of $1200-1500 (never seen one go for $1000) and won't last as long as a genuine Toyota battery. You get what you pay for.
 
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Another thing to consider is battery replacement. Toyota gives them a 10 yr avg and a replacement cost of $2500-3000. Toyota concedes that the cost of replacement will drive most customers to trade their car in on a new car. The owner will likely get a low trade in value on a car that needs close to $3000 worth of batteries. Then the dealer would replace the batteries and either they will eat the cost or pass at least part of it on down to the used car buyer in which case makes them look a lot less attractive compared to a similarly aged vehicle. Either way its an added expense that someone will have to eat.


Which has turned out to be wrong. The cost of a replacement refurbished Prius battery is much less than this ~ div>


There's new batteries and there's reman batteries. Reman are in the ballpark of $1200-1500 (never seen one go for $1000) and won't last as long as a genuine Toyota battery. You get what you pay for.


How much is a Toyota genuine battery?
 
The reman price I posted came from an article on Forbes (was actually ~$800 installed price). Are reman batteries for Prius actually that bad?

I have a timing belt + component change on my Forester every 100k miles that costs ~$1k (assuming non-DIY). $800-$1k isn't really that much if done every 15 years.
 
Originally Posted By: jrmason
Another thing to consider is battery replacement. Toyota gives them a 10 yr avg and a replacement cost of $2500-3000. Toyota concedes that the cost of replacement will drive most customers to trade their car in on a new car. The owner will likely get a low trade in value on a car that needs close to $3000 worth of batteries. Then the dealer would replace the batteries and either they will eat the cost or pass at least part of it on down to the used car buyer in which case makes them look a lot less attractive compared to a similarly aged vehicle. Either way its an added expense that someone will have to eat.


Dealer will not touch it, will kick it to auction. This is similiar to a 10 yr old car with 100K + miles and a bum transission. Dealer will dump the turkey and price the trade in value low to reflect the low price at auction..
 
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Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The reman price I posted came from an article on Forbes (was actually ~$800 installed price). Are reman batteries for Prius actually that bad?

I have a timing belt + component change on my Forester every 100k miles that costs ~$1k (assuming non-DIY). $800-$1k isn't really that much if done every 15 years.


Considering Dorman charges almost $1000 for a core charge I would certainly be weary of buying a supposedly refurbished battery for $800. Shoot, I know a guy that owns a salvage yard over in PA and he sells them for that right out of the car as is.

Dorman remans go for around $1300-1500 and carry a one year warranty. If I was buying a battery for a car I was planning on keeping long term I believe I would pony up an extra thousand bucks and not have to worry about it for the next 8-10 years which is what the OEM batteries are warrantied for.
 
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