Motor life for air cooled VW w/o oil filter?

[Ed_Flecko]

Probably like a lot of BITOG members, I too used to own an air cooled VW bug.

After all I've learned about oil, filters, etc., from this group, I remembered that unless you added an aftermarket oil filter, your air cooled VW only had a screen at the bottom of the oil pan and that's all the filtration the motor had!

I'm curious - does anyone know what the life expectancy was for these motors? With no real form of oil filtration and how wimpy the oil was in the 60's, I can't imagine it would have been realistic to expect the motor to last for more than 50K miles, was it? For those people today who run an air cooled VW without filtration (although I'll bet that's rare), I'm sure today's oil would make some difference in motor longevity but I've got to think that no filtration makes a huge difference in motor life???

Ed

 

[Cujet]

My boss has a VW bus with a new, exact replica of the original engine. No modifications what so ever. I think 46HP. But, as you would expect, fewer German parts than new. Most engine internals are reproduction parts from South America, Mexico and a few from China.

The original engine made it about 70,000 miles from new, with a cylinder/piston/valve job that I helped him with about 10+ years ago. So, I'd guess 50,000 would be a good guess before internal maintenance. Remember, the bus engine is always full throttle. A bug engine may not be.

The original engine was not in good shape, with massive corrosion on the cases and it finally leaked out all it's oil. It did not run nearly as well as his "brand new" engine. Probably due to camshaft/lifter wear and other issues.

While I'd not call the VW bus "impressive" it is very smooth and quiet. It's quite fun to ride in and it will haul a bunch of us out to lunch.

As I stated, the original engine was in rough shape. The cylinders, pistons, and heads were all absolute scrap when we worked on it. The cylinders were flat worn out. I think the piston rings (by memory) were plain cast iron. And they too, were quite worn. Both cylinder heads had failed/loose valve seats and worn guides.

My brother drives a VW Vanagon, since the mid 1980's, with the Wasserboxer (water cooled version of the engine) . He uses Mobil 1 and gets about 70,000 from each overhaul. But it too, wears out and is rather troublesome.

 

[Cujet]

On another note, my airplane, a Cessna Cardinal 177RG, with 200HP Lycoming did not have an oil filter. The engine made it from 1974 to 2007. And it came really close to making it's 2000 hour overhaul life. Nothing was wrong with the engine except.....

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
The original engine made it about 70,000 miles from new, with a cylinder/piston/valve job that I helped him with about 10+ years ago. So, I'd guess 50,000 would be a good guess before internal maintenance. Remember, the bus engine is always full throttle. A bug engine may not be...My brother drives a VW Vanagon, since the mid 1980's, with the Wasserboxer (water cooled version of the engine) . He uses Mobil 1 and gets about 70,000 from each overhaul. But it too, wears out and is rather troublesome...


Isn't that amazing?...only 50-70K out of a motor!

I wonder how much of a difference a quality filter would make to the life of these motors or maybe they don't last long because of poor design?

Ed

 

[OneEyeJack]

I always used Frantz filters for the gas and the oil on my VW's. I owned 11 buss's and a couple of bugs including a 49 and a 52 and several dune buggies.

My last buss was a 79 square port 2 litre Type IV. It was a great bus. Anything newer was junk.

 

[andyd]

I had bugs exclusively for nearly 20 yrs. Just over 100K was my average before #3 exhaust valve dropped

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: andyd
I had bugs exclusively for nearly 20 yrs. Just over 100K was my average before #3 exhaust valve dropped


Wow!...no kidding? Did they run with oil filters or without?

Ed

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko

Isn't that amazing?...only 50-70K out of a motor!

I wonder how much of a difference a quality filter would make to the life of these motors or maybe they don't last long because of poor design?

Ed


Well, I did mention that I thought it had plain old cast iron piston rings. Chrome faced rings would have lasted longer. However, I can't be sure they were original.

I'd guess the engine was simply not made well enough to last a very long time under "ALL" conditions. I certainly don't recall VW's lasting a very long time. In fact, I remember them being the most troublesome of all vehicles.

Certainly, someone in a moderate climate, who operates the engine carefully, and maintains it well will achieve good results. Air cooled engines are sensitive to proper warm up and temperature management.

Here in Florida, an air cooled Bus runs hot if abused.

But, VW's 1600cc bug engine is a far cry from Ford's 4.6L modular V8. It's an occasional VW air cooled engine that makes 100K. Where as it's common for Ford's 4.6L to have 500,000 or 600,000 in taxi/limo service.

 

[walterjay]

I had a 74 Beetle. I changed the oil about every 2,000 miles. At 89,292 miles I dropped #3 valve into the piston. When the engine was tore down, it looked virtually brand new. If I had changed the valves early on, I believe that motor would have gone over 150k by the looks of it.
Always used Havoline 10W-40. Not having an oil filter did not seem to be a big deal since the oil was changed often.

 

[Rick in PA]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The original engine made it about 70,000 miles from new, with a cylinder/piston/valve job that I helped him with about 10+ years ago. So, I'd guess 50,000 would be a good guess before internal maintenance. Remember, the bus engine is always full throttle. A bug engine may not be...My brother drives a VW Vanagon, since the mid 1980's, with the Wasserboxer (water cooled version of the engine) . He uses Mobil 1 and gets about 70,000 from each overhaul. But it too, wears out and is rather troublesome...


Isn't that amazing?...only 50-70K out of a motor!

I wonder how much of a difference a quality filter would make to the life of these motors or maybe they don't last long because of poor design?

Ed


I don't think I'd say poor design. I've never been a VW bug guy, although my wife owned a couple of them while we were dating. An old design, yes. To keep it in context, remember the VW engine was generally in service fifty plus years ago. A lot has changed since then.

Air cooled runs hotter and is certainly harder on a motor. As I remember the bug had a 5 pint (yes, pint) oil capacity. On the other hand, it wasn't a power dense engine. Oil change intervals were more frequent then too.

Hypothetically speaking, if I was going to add an oil filter to one, I'd add an oil cooler to it too. I don't think they had an oil cooler.

 

[Chris142]

My dad had 2 bugs he bought new. A 70 and a 74. Neither had any internal engine work done. He pulled the engine out of the 70 to check things @120k and everything was still in spec.


He wrecked the 74 with 145k on it. Neither burned oil and both lived on Pennzoil 10w40. I remember him cleaning the screen's in gas.

Did several road trips from ca to tx in them as a little kid. I remember it being scorching hot on one trip.

 

[Chris142]

Rick in pa. They do have an oil cooler

 

[HerrStig]

The oil cooler impeded airflow to #3 cylinder so it ran hotter than the others. I can't recall if that was ever changed. A dual carb manifold set up instead of the soda straw intake made a good improvement in performance at a very low cost. Replacing the silly stock two peashooter muffler with a 4 into one system picked up a bit more power and made the engine sound like an inline four.
I got about 130K out of a 67, Castrol 30 weight, first year of uncovered headlights, 12 volts and a gas gauge. Last year for the classic tubular bumpers.
Take a look at the 4 cyl engine in a 60's Porsche 365, that's what VW should have done.

 

[berniedd]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
The oil cooler impeded airflow to #3 cylinder so it ran hotter than the others. I can't recall if that was ever changed. A dual carb manifold set up instead of the soda straw intake made a good improvement in performance at a very low cost. Replacing the silly stock two peashooter muffler with a 4 into one system picked up a bit more power and made the engine sound like an inline four.
I got about 130K out of a 67, Castrol 30 weight, first year of uncovered headlights, 12 volts and a gas gauge. Last year for the classic tubular bumpers.
Take a look at the 4 cyl engine in a 60's Porsche 365, that's what VW should have done.


You're spot on on most of the above. However, VW improved the cooling system in the early 70s with the doghouse oil cooler, thicker fan for more air flow and new fan housing design. The major change there was that the oil cooler was now made of aluminum and housed forward of the original design and with its own air flow apart from that to the left engine bank. This eliminated the air flow restriction to #3 cylinder. The neat thing could be bought and an oil line adaptor alowed an owner of an older model Bug to upgrade to the new fan housing design.

Engine life could also be improved with aftermarket addition of full flow oil filtration either with an externally plumbed filter and oil lines, or via a filter adaptor and oil pump combination.

 

[MinamiKotaro]

A lot depends on climate and use but I'd say 60,000 would be a good ballpark figure. With a deep sump, filter, and doghouse cooling system, 100,000 or more with ease.

Eliminating the heater boxes and using a tube header helps tremendously, I've found, as it drops head temp WAY down. Of course, then you don't have a heater ...

Dad's 1915 was daily driven from 1983 to 2004 with a stock sump, no filter, and heater boxes. He opened it up once to see if it needed to be rebuilt and found that everything still looked brand new. He decided to put new mains and rings in it, anyway, since it was open.

 

[Papa Bear]

I put 150k miles on a '76 Beetle and the reason I traded the car was rust.

It still ran like new.

 

[carock]

Wow. Here is a question I can finally answer with authority!

Engine life span depended a lot on the ambient temperature where you drove and the speed you drove. If you lived in a hot climate and drove 70 mph all the time, a factory stock beetle could be toast in 30,000 miles. If you lived in coastal Oregon and never exceeded 55 mph you could go over 200,000 miles. Here in sunny SoCal a factory new Beetle could get 90,000 miles following the book maintenance intervals. A bus would get far less, and I would say they averaged 35,000. The valves tended to be the first thing to go, followed by the main bearings, and then the rings.

Adding a full flow oil filter was not a popular idea, so I always tried to do it. I had them on my full Gene Berg motors. One of them has 135,000 with dual Webers and is still driving in San Francisco with no rebuilds. Pretty good for a hot rod 80 hp 1800cc motor. I don't think that a full flow filter helps a whole lot for engine longevity because the problem with American driving is that the engine over heats. If you solve the over heating problem, then filtration will make a big difference.

 

[Chris142]

My dad drove his from the desert to Los Angeles every day in the heat. Up cajon pass etc .we made several trips from ca to tx in those bugs at the maximum and cruising speed of 78 mph.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
My dad drove his from the desert to Los Angeles every day in the heat. Up cajon pass etc .we made several trips from ca to tx in those bugs at the maximum and cruising speed of 78 mph.
Wow 78! I once got the 1970 Beetle up to 73 mph, it was a little scary! I drive it on the highway at 60, it seems a little hard on it at 65.

 

[ragtoplvr]

used to remove the stock cooler, go to a bigger one, and filter. Usually the bigger cooler mounted at the engine air intake, you could also mount then outside the engine compartment cover, if you still had one, or some where in the breeze. Better rings, not chrome, they wore the jugs too much, but good steel rings and 3 piece oil rings will extend engine life. 100k bug engine with these mods is common. Karmen Ghia was lighter, and engine lasted longer. Assuming you fit in one.

Rod