temp/type/pressure - street car on track

[sickmint79]

i wasn't sure to post this here or the racing forum, i went for this since my car is not a race car, just something i take to HPDEs. 2013 subaru brz. manual states 0w20 and recommends 5w30 for hard driving.

ok fellas i have a bunch of data and pics.

first up is autobahn full in august. i don't recall outdoor temps and am too lazy to look up. iirc i don't think the airaid was even in at this point. actually now i'm thinking it was. in any case, here is my data from several sessions from the day. i have oil temp (blue), coolant temp (red), and intake temp (green) all on the left axis in F - on the second axis for [censored] although not that interesting is first cat temp (thin purple). i'm using amsoil 0w20 signature series in these first two charts.

so pretty hotsy motsy and where i rendered this data on one of my videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL5OeHDvIHc

i did a day at gingerman a bit later. also hot stuff.

i sent in the oil for analysis to blackstone. it was freshly put in oil, after the autobahn full track day (single day) iirc. they responded with this:

obd2 does not provide oil pressure. i was a bit worried. per Dezoris' thread/vid
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76760

Quote:

STREET TEMPS
0W20 Redline

0w20 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 10PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 54PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure

10W30 Redline

10w30 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 19PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 51PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 83PSI Oil Pressure

10W40 Redline

10w40 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 25PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 64PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 78PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 91PSI Oil Pressure


TRACK TEMPS AFTER 9 LAPS @ 1 Minute 15 Seconds Per Lap
0W20 Redline

0w20 Redline 225F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 2000RPM 30PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 4000RPM 48PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 225F @ 7000RPM 43PSI Oil Pressure


10W30 Redline

10w30 Redline 245F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 4000RPM 52PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 7000RPM 46PSI Oil Pressure

10W40 Redline (12 Laps)

10w40 Redline 265F @ 800RPM 8PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 2000RPM 31PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 4000RPM 55PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 7000RPM 45PSI Oil Pressure

i am unclear exactly what is "bad" and it seems to be the desires pressure is r's x 10 + 10 so 3000 rpm = 40 desires, 6000 rpm = 70 desired.

based on the above, i decided to try a heavier oil. although the manual also says 5w30, i went for 10w30. no FI and i figured 30 seemed heavier enough to provide benefits. my (internet myth?) understanding is the narrower range means it can withstand more "abuse" - based on essentially nothing. some of the stats between 5w30 amsoil signature and 10w30 look close enough that i'm wondering if i bought the wrong oil, and that 5w30 would take the same heat but be better for cold starts.

installed a bunch of [censored] since these track days -
flex fuel kit, delicious stage 2 tune
ceramic coated jdl el catted header - amazingly you can touch it after a session
gold wrapped my intake
zeek air scoop snorkel
forester oil cooler
koyo radiator

so not apples/apples with only one element changed here. also installed sandwich plate with oil pressure and temp guages. i set the "oh noes" mark for oil at 260 and pressure at 40.

now that i have all this infos, it was interesting to me to see how long it actually takes to warm up the oil. although it is now quicker to warm it up than without this kit, it still takes a few minutes - i never realized that. my putzing around town seems to sit around 180-190 degrees. being more of a bone 200-210. cruising down the highway sitting at 80-85 i hit 220, 60 psi and at 3.5k rpm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKKnGRVXB8

no data or video for pressure on track but i appear to have more favorable results than dezoris. i will mount a camera to the left of my helmet this saturday at gingerman to get a view of them. i was concentrating more on driving and had an instructor as well, so didn't want to appear (and be) distracted looking at these things, but what i did notice - oil would get up to 240-260 but around 6000 rpm, iirc, my pressure was still looking pretty good - 60+. this seems much better than the results above.

i also noticed during cool down the temps rapidly came down. certainly working great there. the first day was my first track day for the year, and the first 2 sessions were quite wet. i got braver on the next 2 as it dried out and i was becoming more familiar with the car and track and driving at my own pace again, which i consider an intermediate+ driver.

the second day was cooler out but stayed dry. it might have been around the same temp in the afternoon (70s/low 80s?). these were 25 minute sessions.

the data is as follows:

i parked next to my buddy jeff with an e36 m3 that seems to be reliable as [censored], and he appears to cruise all day long with no problems at 200. a few cars down was a guy with a gutted e46 m3 and a bigger aftermarket oil cooler who gunned for 240-260. so that being not ideal, but kind of acceptable, at least made me feel a bit better about my temps.

adding some more to my post 474 - http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2253620&postcount=474

i went to gingerman today, it got up to around 80 or so outside.

it's amusing that you can tell by oil temps that my last 2 sessions were nice and my others were full of trains and messes. who did not stick it out through the last 2 sessions of the day, thankfully.

my oil temp (sandwich) and data temp (obd2, wherever that sensor is) are off from eachother, i think putzing around the gauge was higher? it certainly seems to be the case here. max oil 251. but if you look at my gauges (pressure then oil, left to right)

the oil seems higher than my max of 251 in the data. i thought i saw it getting near 255 maybe + but def not 260 or over. in any case here's a snapshot from the helmet cam vid:

this is from the long straight at gingerman, so top out 3rd then here i'm topping out 4th. i look to be about 7000+ rpms. my understanding is the desired pressure would be 80 psi, but i don't seem to be in too bad of shape at what appears to be around 60 psi.

i flirt with the idea of a twin screw sc kit some time next year, although probably better for me to get more seat time than more power (but hard to resist!)

in any case i am looking for opinions on the current situation. if heat is the enemy it would seem arguable that i should simply get a regular air oil cooler. note i am in chicagoland but do not drive this in the winter (although would when it is cooler out but not snow season.) or if this is an acceptable range and my oil pressure is acceptable, perhaps i should simply happily cruise along with the state as-is until i do do something more drastic like add FI?

posted this on ft86 club but reposting over here to get some expert opinions from the oil guys.

1. what/why should i choose among 0w30, 5w30, 10w30 ?
2. my amsoil seems to have much more favorable results than the redline quoted above by another member - why is that?
3. am i in a "don't worry about it you are good range" or a "you should really consider an air oil cooler" range?
4. would a pan with more oil capacity do anything other than simply delay reaching these same temps 30 seconds later?
5. would going forced induction, say a supercharger adding 80 more whp, cause the oil to run much hotter? or who knows until we do it?
6. given i am running all e85 now on my flex fuel tune, should i be changing my oil more frequently?

 

[Amirkhat]

Nice presentation, your questions are really good. Some of which are easier to answer than others. All I can tell you E85 burns cleaner than regular gas, and keep in mind a major function of oil is to channel away heat from the combustion process (less is not always better). Lastly, adding that kind of HP will undoubtedly cause much hotter temps (probably somewhat linear).

As for the rest, I think these are questions major car companies spend millions of dollars answering; therefore I think you'll be hard pressed to find answers on these.

 

[A_Harman]

Things are good. 260F is no problem for a quality synthetic. All of your oil temperature traces do level off and maintain a steady temperature.
Don't go thinking you need to have 80 psi oil pressure. I have never heard the (krpm*10 + 10) rule. I heard the (krpm*10) rule about 30 years ago and prove it wrong every time I take to the track. I've been running my Corvette with 40 psi on the track for 23 years.
If you go forced induction, you would probably have to do something to increase cooling capacity. Not only for the oil, but also for the coolant. (And get bigger brakes.)
But don't go forced induction until you as a driver are ready for it. Are you getting bored driving your car at its present level of power? If you still find it a thrill, and are still building speed in the turns, you're not ready yet. When you are working the tires to the max in every turn, and are getting bored on the straights, you're ready for more power.
A good handling, low-powered car can hold off much more powerful cars at GingerMan.
What are you running for tires? A set of sticky tires could improve your lap times by about 4 seconds around there.

 

[sickmint79]

thanks for the thoughts.

what does become a problem? note i do not have any pressure data for the 0w20 that was near 280.

also still curious if i should be changing oil more frequently because of e85?

how often do you recommend changing oil that gets this hot, is there anything like an x many events or sessions "rule" to go by?

i have an upgraded (koyo) radiator as well as a big brake kit. supercharger seems all around fun, but there is lots more time i am leaving on the track as is.

tires are 225 bfg rivals on 8" wheels. the car has suspension and the e85 with the header gives it a kick in power - my best lap is 1:55 or a real high 1:54, i'm sure a capable driver can probably easily get a 1:48 in it. so i certainly have much to learn before i have any real business adding power, this is true.

 

[Clevy]

Because of the extreme duty nature of how you are operating the vehicle I suggest a euro spec 0w-40 or Castrol euro 0w-30.
I'm leaning more towards the 0w-40s though only because you are really beating on it.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: sickmint79
thanks for the thoughts.

what does become a problem? note i do not have any pressure data for the 0w20 that was near 280.

also still curious if i should be changing oil more frequently because of e85?

how often do you recommend changing oil that gets this hot, is there anything like an x many events or sessions "rule" to go by?

i have an upgraded (koyo) radiator as well as a big brake kit. supercharger seems all around fun, but there is lots more time i am leaving on the track as is.

tires are 225 bfg rivals on 8" wheels. the car has suspension and the e85 with the header gives it a kick in power - my best lap is 1:55 or a real high 1:54, i'm sure a capable driver can probably easily get a 1:48 in it. so i certainly have much to learn before i have any real business adding power, this is true.


I used to run my Corvette up to 285F on Castrol GTX (conventional) when it was still in stock form. It came from the factory with a coolant-to-oil heat exchanger integrated into the oil filter base. Later on, when I boosted power to 400-ish, I changed to an air-oil cooler and synthetic oil. I have seen oil temperature up to 315F when running on very high-speed tracks, but that was with Redline oil, so I didn't worry too much about it. I think if you can run the oil in the range of 240-280F, it would be OK.

If you can get oil pressure recorded on your datalogging system, that would be good. For clockwise-turning engines, long left-had turns (such as the 5-6 combination and turn 9 at Gingerman), have a tendency to make the oil pressure drop after 6 or so seconds of high-G turning. Oil can accumulate in the right bank cylinder head and won't get back to the sump. This would be a good reason to put on a larger-capacity oil pan.

Since you don't seem shy about modifying your car, this would be something to consider. A larger capacity pan would also allow the oil to rest in the pan longer and release more entrained air, and the larger surface area of a larger pan may also help reject more heat. More oil in the lube system also means you could extend oil change intervals.

As far as E85 is concerned, I don't think it would be an issue running it on the track. The oil is getting hot enough to boil off excess water that the E85 would produce. It may even be helping the engine run cooler due to its higher evaporative cooling effect in the induction system and cylinders. Running E85 on the street, however, may have a negative effect on oil life. In street use, especially if you are short-tripping, it would put more moisture into the oil, depleting the TBN more quickly. API SN-spec oils have been formulated to combat this problem.

 

[camperbob]

I have always based a 40 degree oil/coolant spread is what you shoot for. If your coolant hit a max of 185 but your oil was in the 250 range, the oil is doing more cooling than it should.

IMO, id put an oil cooler on that engine, and atleast do a 0w40 at those temps

 

[SteveSRT8]

I actually emailed Mobil back in 06 about oil temps over 300 degrees in my car at Homestead at a track event.

Their reply? What are you worried about? They stated that the temps were just fine and would not harm the car or its oil.

Blackstone agreed...

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Because of the extreme duty nature of how you are operating the vehicle I suggest a euro spec 0w-40 or Castrol euro 0w-30.
I'm leaning more towards the 0w-40s though only because you are really beating on it.

Unless the car is driven in the winter it's probably not advantageous to get an oil with such a wide viscosity range as a 0w-40, more additives than necessary.

OP, I regularly do HPDE as well and went through a period of curiosity like this (albeit without any graphs). You probably aren't getting any advantage out of the 'boutique' oils and the cooling system, especially of a car like this, is designed to keep things in check during track work. Worry more about hitting the apex and less about oil temp.

It is interesting though.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Unless the car is driven in the winter it's probably not advantageous to get an oil with such a wide viscosity range as a 0w-40, more additives than necessary.

That particular lube is used quite a bit in racing, though, and Mobil does offer 0w-XX racing specific lubes, too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: gofast182
Unless the car is driven in the winter it's probably not advantageous to get an oil with such a wide viscosity range as a 0w-40, more additives than necessary.

That particular lube is used quite a bit in racing, though, and Mobil does offer 0w-XX racing specific lubes, too.


Yeah, including GM's Corvette racing team as well as Porsche and Mercedes in their 24hr cars (LeMans, Nurburgring...etc).

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Because of the extreme duty nature of how you are operating the vehicle I suggest a euro spec 0w-40 or Castrol euro 0w-30.
I'm leaning more towards the 0w-40s though only because you are really beating on it.

Unless the car is driven in the winter it's probably not advantageous to get an oil with such a wide viscosity range as a 0w-40, more additives than necessary.

OP, I regularly do HPDE as well and went through a period of curiosity like this (albeit without any graphs). You probably aren't getting any advantage out of the 'boutique' oils and the cooling system, especially of a car like this, is designed to keep things in check during track work. Worry more about hitting the apex and less about oil temp.

It is interesting though.



More additives then necessary?

Sure bud. That's why it's Porsches factory fill among other high power density oem's.
I read absurd posts here every day however you won't be most absurd post of the day award.
Trophy is in the mail

 

[dradernh1]

I'd just put in 15W50 Red Line Race Oil before the event, and then take it back out after the event. Reusing it for each event would be an option. Of course, that could be inconvenient or impractical if you're doing lots of events.

 

[sickmint79]

Originally Posted By: camperbob
I have always based a 40 degree oil/coolant spread is what you shoot for. If your coolant hit a max of 185 but your oil was in the 250 range, the oil is doing more cooling than it should.

IMO, id put an oil cooler on that engine, and atleast do a 0w40 at those temps


i'm not a huge fan of this rule, given that a coolant temp of 210 would make this acceptable, but that wouldn't be any better of a situation right

?

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I actually emailed Mobil back in 06 about oil temps over 300 degrees in my car at Homestead at a track event.

Their reply? What are you worried about? They stated that the temps were just fine and would not harm the car or its oil.

Blackstone agreed...


that is interesting to note. i have since found a track prepped e46 m3 even with a cooler to be operating around my range, so that makes me feel better about it. it also seems 350zs (which even have an oem cooler?) get up to 280+ on track and get there in a hurry, a short amount of laps. if i live around 255 with 60 psi at 7k at the edge of me pushing it today, that doesn't seem so bad.

 

[sickmint79]

e85, 8(?) track days, lots of rain; don't have solo data but highest temp i recall seeing was 250+ - i'm sure it was all 265 or under. with the cooler newly installed, which is the oem one from a forester xt, which routes coolant through copper housing.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: gofast182
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Because of the extreme duty nature of how you are operating the vehicle I suggest a euro spec 0w-40 or Castrol euro 0w-30.
I'm leaning more towards the 0w-40s though only because you are really beating on it.

Unless the car is driven in the winter it's probably not advantageous to get an oil with such a wide viscosity range as a 0w-40, more additives than necessary.

OP, I regularly do HPDE as well and went through a period of curiosity like this (albeit without any graphs). You probably aren't getting any advantage out of the 'boutique' oils and the cooling system, especially of a car like this, is designed to keep things in check during track work. Worry more about hitting the apex and less about oil temp.

It is interesting though.



More additives then necessary?

Sure bud. That's why it's Porsches factory fill among other high power density oem's.
I read absurd posts here every day however you won't be most absurd post of the day award.
Trophy is in the mail

Thanks, I'm sure I deserved the insult. Porsche doesn't know if its owner will be driving the car all year in temperature ranges from 14-94F or whether it's a summer/track car that only gets driven from 64-94F. Point was he may not need the VI modifiers as much and could have a more stable oil. Sure it's splitting hairs but that's what this thread is about with all the charts and graphs.

 

[Garak]

We do know, however, that M1 0w-40 is used in Porsche GT class cars in endurance racing. There seems to be no fear about the "spread" there. Perhaps it is just splitting hairs.

 

[sickmint79]

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Garak
We do know, however, that M1 0w-40 is used in Porsche GT class cars in endurance racing. There seems to be no fear about the "spread" there. Perhaps it is just splitting hairs.


Yes, I guess the 'fear of shear' is quite unfounded with this oil.
I would also say the same for Red Line's 0W-40, and maybe even Motul's Trophy 300V.

 

[Garak]

Of course, everything is application dependent, too. I certainly wouldn't fear using M1 0w-40 where it was the approved lube.