TO-4 or not for only hydraulic ?

[miniac007]

Hi all,

For their loaders hydraulics, caterpillar ask for a TO-4 oil with a least 900ppm of Zinc.

But these oils are multifunctionnal hydraulic/transmission so I'd like to know if the 900ppm is needed for the hydraulic use or only for the transmission part...

I need to use a loader with a gear hydraulic pump from -30°C to + 30°C (-22°F to 86°F), so if I want a TO-4, I need the artic version which cost a LOT...

So, can I chose a simple VG 22 or VG 32, detergent or not, without problem for only the hydraulic knowing that they have a low Zinc ppm, or do I still need a high Zinc in the hydraulic oil ?

Thanks !

 

[MolaKule]

The hydraulic pump has gears, soooo, it needs a proper amount of AW hydraulic/transmission fluid with > 1000 ppm of zinc Dithiophosphate.

The fluid for your area should should have a KV@100C of appox. 7.0 cSt, or an SAE 10 viscosity grade.

I have no idea what is available in Sweden but if want to import a good hydraulic/transmission fluid, contact 'salesrep.'

 

[Whitewolf]

Originally Posted By: miniac007
Hi all,

For their loaders hydraulics, caterpillar ask for a TO-4 oil with a least 900ppm of Zinc.

But these oils are multifunctionnal hydraulic/transmission so I'd like to know if the 900ppm is needed for the hydraulic use or only for the transmission part...

I need to use a loader with a gear hydraulic pump from -30°C to + 30°C (-22°F to 86°F), so if I want a TO-4, I need the artic version which cost a LOT...

So, can I chose a simple VG 22 or VG 32, detergent or not, without problem for only the hydraulic knowing that they have a low Zinc ppm, or do I still need a high Zinc in the hydraulic oil ?

Thanks !


I think you should be able to get Shell Donax TC? I believe that might provide what you want?

 

[miniac007]

Thank you for your answers !

- So I cannot use a VG32 with 400/500 ppm of zinc, it i to low for a gear pump ?

- I can buy good 10w TO-4, no problem.

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P002119/6341-megolGetriebe-HydraulikoelTO-4SAE10W-11.0-en.pdf

But I have a problem with it at low temperature:

Eaton gives for gear pumps:

mini 6cst
optimum 10-43 cst
maxi 2158 cst

But, at low temperature, I reach 2158 cst at -15°C (5°F) and I need to go to -30°C (-22°F)...

So the 10w is a problem ...


- I can get a 0w-20 engine oil at good price whith good level of Zinc

http://www.pennasol.de/a1v2/wp-content/downloads/164737_PEN_PI_SUPER_EXTRA_SAE_0W-20_DE_V1.pdf

But again, I am limited to -25°C (-13°F)...

I have also an TAN concern, as this virgin oil as a TAN between 3 and 4, and hydraulic oils have usually a TAN = 0.5 ... Is that a problem ?


- The best alternative I found in term of viscosity is the oils formulated for the Swedish army and available at a good price:

http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/e3327415-5851-48f2-9b03-cc427cd60d4b.PDF

BUT, those kind of oil are ashless so with TPPT instead of Zinc !

Can I use them with a gear pump ?


Thanks !

 

[MolaKule]

Or consider this series:

Shell LOW-Temp HF

 

[miniac007]

Thanks Molakule,

The Shell LT use exactly the same technology as the Q8 LT listed above: ashless AW. Q8 is just more common than Shell here.

So, do those TPPT and other ashless AW additives can replace and have the same or better efficiency than ZDDP in a traditionnal mobile gear pump system ?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thanks Molakule,

The Shell LT use exactly the same technology as the Q8 LT listed above: ashless AW. Q8 is just more common than Shell here.

So, do those TPPT and other ashless AW additives can replace and have the same or better efficiency than ZDDP in a traditionnal mobile gear pump system ?


How do you know Q8 uses the same technology as the Shell? The way I read your posts is that you're set on using Q8 no matter what.

I'll give you some chemistry facts and you make up your mind, because I have not analyzed neither Q8 nor the recommended Shell to determine how close they may be in formulation.

The main AW component in ZDDP is a phosphorus component, so most ashless AW additives are based on some type of phosphorus chemistry minus the zinc or ZDDP.

 

[miniac007]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

How do you know Q8 uses the same technology as the Shell?


Sorry to have made it short way: what I mean is all those artic oils: Q8 LT, Shell LT, Agrol Artic, Statoil 131 use ashless AW, it is on the PDS. You are right, I don't know which kind of ashless it is exactly for each brand, but it is ashless technology, not ZDDP technology like CAT does or in engine oil. So I just meant Ashless VS Zinc technology.

As I cannot buy 20l of each to just send a sample to Blackstone, I have just the PDS to decide... So help is welcome

And the PDS tell me Artic Ashless VS TO-4 with zinc VS engine oil. The first have the right viscosity, the second and third, the good Zinc...

That's why I ask if there is a problem, or any advantage to replace a TO-4 by an ashlees technology ?

If it exists a TO-4 artic (other than CAT one), the question would be solved, but I cannot find one, just 10w, so the question is still open...

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

The way I read your posts is that you're set on using Q8 no matter what.


What I mean is all those artic oils have the right viscosity for my use. The To-4 I found, no...

Between all those ashless, the Q8 is the most common here, shell is not. Agrol and Statoil are common too, but more expensive.

I have no preference between brands, just try to make the best choice with the supplies and the informations I have...


If ashless is no good to replace TO-4, the second choice I see is to put a VG32 with 500ppm of Zinc, and add 500ppm more with a ZDDP additive, like ZDDPPlus.

 

[MolaKule]

I think the Q8 hydraulic oil or similar will work in your application.


My point above is that the main AW component is a phosphorus compound that suffices to provide sufficient AW protection.


I would not put ANY OTC additive into a formulated oil lest you upset the balance of additives.

 

[miniac007]

Thank you MolaKule

I digged more on MSDS and found:

* The Q8 contains 0.25% of ethyl 3-[[bis(1-methylethoxy)phosphinothioyl]thio]propionate

* The statoil 131 contains 9-Octadecen-1-ol, (Z)-, reaction products with hydrogen sulfide, sulfur and 2,4,4-trimethylpentene, reaction products with phosphorus oxide (P2O5), compds. with 1-tridecanamine (1:1)

* Agrol Arktis use Ditiofosforic acid ester.

* Shell use Triphenyl phosphate

What do you think about these ashless additives on the AW side ? and also about rust protection when the machine is stopped for a long time ?

Are some known to produce phosphoric acid when get old ?


All those oil contains 60-80% of HC oils. Agrol list Dodecyl methacrylate as VI improver, I don't know for the other.

 

[supercity]

Caterpillar are accepting UTTO in some of their newer machines. For cold temps maybe J20D would be suitable, Low-Vis Hyguard (J20D) is suitable to -40C