Poor Hybrid sales threaten 2025 CAFE targets

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
If saving money is the objective...the Prius fails. Offhand, I have seen Mirages (37/44MPG) advertised for $11K. $5800 buys LOTS of gas.


Not true.

A Prius C beats that junk Mitsubishi in city by 16+ MPG, and highwy by 12+ MPG.

Additionally, the Prius line is the most dependable cars made in the world, and history of cars.

For another $6,000 the smarter set would bypass the inferior Mitsubishi and go for the Toyota.

Mitsubishi has a HORRIBLE repulation for quality, and reliability in the USA, and the world.


Describe in detail YOUR bad experience with Mitsubishi. Be specific.

And again: $5800 buys a LOT of gas!


Describe, in detail, the major points of a college statistics class curriculum.

Take statistics, and you too will see how silly it is to judge a car by 1 user experience.

Mitsubishis are junk, and that is why they sell THE LEAST number of Japanese cars in America. Mitsubishi has been in the USA market for many decades, yet they have not been able to provide the quality required for sales to take off.

Your love for Mitsubishi is emotion, and not based on facts.


You have a vivid imagination!

You also have a grasp on reality that is, at best, tenuous.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.


In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)

You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?


Not here. The current jetta is rated for 30/42MPG.

Now that I think about it...doesn't a Mirage beat that?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: lovcom


It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and evironment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.

The dumbest are those that drive Dodge Chargers, with the big 21" rims.

Study demographics and you will see this too.


I work in healthcare. I don't know a single doctor that drives a Hybrid. Nobody in my family drives a hybrid. Now unless you are attempting to posit that cardiac surgery isn't an advanced degree, or radiology, or a PhD in mathematics, I think it may be wise to consider that this information that has been "scientifically shown" may be of the agenda driven type. People drive what they like.

Also, food for thought: There are a number of Engineers on this board as well as many with others types of advanced degrees. If we were to look at the cross-section of Engineers and those with other advanced degrees and what they drive, how many of them do you think drive hybrids?

We could twist this around and say that driving a Hybrid doesn't magically increase your intelligence or save the planet. The people I know that are of the extremely intelligent type don't seem to care a whole heck of a lot about their "green image". Instead the focus is more about their careers and family as well as providing real aide like going overseas to provide medical assistance in war-torn or poverty stricken nations. And then they come home and drive around in their Mercedes, Land Rover, BMW or Suburban.

In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.

 

[jrmason]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.


In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)

You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?


Not here. The current jetta is rated for 30/42MPG.

Now that I think about it...doesn't a Mirage beat that?


The difference is virtually every diesels EPA rating is very conservative. Most people find that the actual mpg is higher than advertised ratings in real world driving where as for some reason gas is the complete opposite. Hyundai, KIA, and Honda have all been sued in recent years for posting inaccurate mpg ratings.

I can tell you for certain Ive taken a handful of trips in the wifes TDI and cleared 50mpg, hand calculated, highway miles. No hypermiling.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: lovcom

It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and evironment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.

The dumbest are those that drive Dodge Chargers, with the big 21" rims.

Study demographics and you will see this too.


I love the earth and the environment. My Avalanche is much more friendly to the plants than the hybrids.
My Avalanche liberates much more co2 that was in the atmosphere, consumed by plants and formed oil over time. I'm releasing all that C02 goodness back to be reused by todays forests and plants. So my truck is greener than most hybrids.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: jrmason


I can tell you for certain Ive taken a handful of trips in the wifes TDI and cleared 50mpg, hand calculated, highway miles. No hypermiling.


You have a pre-emission TDI...the newer ones use more fuel.

 

[whip]

My next vehicle will be a Tahoe. I want to get the wife a Prius or Fusion hybrid. I wonder what that says about me?

Also, a vehicle doesn't have to get 50MPG to meet the standard. There's loopholes and other nonsense that doesn't make sense. A full size truck with a flex fuel engine gets credit for being an 85MPG vehicle.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: grampi

How many long trips do you make in a year? If it's once or twice, then you fit into the same category of those who buy gas hogging F-350s because they need to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, and then they use that same vehicle for every day driving...in other words, a huge waste...


Quite a few actually. Generally once a month for family reasons, a few times per year for work reasons, and at least one long vacation.

And, this type of attitude is what bothers me about those who claim I'm wasteful. They are happy to try and control me and what I do, without ever walking a mile in my shoes. In fact, you could claim that my FL to TN trip is wasteful. So is my home AC. So is my toaster. Who needs toast... It never ends. Reduxio ad Absurdum.

I tried the small car thing. It did not work out well for my family. I will choose what works for me. Period. I have zero interest in "looking cool". I do have an interest in transporting my family in safety and comfort.

Not only that, but I got so many speeding tickets, I bought an airplane. It gets me there in 1/4 the time and gets 25MPG doing so.


You have no reason to be upset about what I said because obviously, you don't fit into that category. The people that are wasteful are those who buy something like an F-350 because they need it to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, but then they use it as an every day driver...that's ridiculous...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.


You do know that even the mighty Prius won't meet the 2025 CAFE numbers. At this point, it does not look technically possible to meet the requirements without some form of electric drive.

Unless we can reduce cars weight by about half, reduce aerodynamic drag by 50% and increase BSFC by 50% or more, we will not meet CAFE requirements with current or projected internal combustion technology.

In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)

Useless? Hardly. Just because it doesn't seat 6, or is capable of towing doesn't mean it's useless. And 49 MPG is the city rating for this vehicle...highway is 84 MPG...and I have a deposit on an Elio...I just hope they make it to production...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
You have a vivid imagination!

You also have a grasp on reality that is, at best, tenuous.


I agree with him...Mitsus are junk...I'd never own one...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!




Why do you people have to label everyone who isn't exactly like you? Did you ever stop and think that these people may simply want to spend less money on gas?

 

[jrmason]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: jrmason


I can tell you for certain Ive taken a handful of trips in the wifes TDI and cleared 50mpg, hand calculated, highway miles. No hypermiling.


You have a pre-emission TDI...the newer ones use more fuel.


My first statement still holds true. EPA ratings are far more conservative when it comes to diesel than gas. Its a well known fact.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: grampi

The people that are wasteful are those who buy something like an F-350 because they need it to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, but then they use it as an every day driver...that's ridiculous...


Wasteful of what? In economics, waste implies there is a shortage, so what shortage are you talking about that is being wasted? Some of us get stuff like F-250 / F-350 and never tow anything like a 5th wheel RV or gooseneck trailer. We need more than the typical 1/2 ton pickup to haul occasionally what we do though. And our 3/4 or 1 ton pickups are also our normal everyday vehicles. Take a Prius up and down my road after a rainstorm or winter storm and you will park it in town and put a "For Sale" sign in the window real quick. That is, after you walk back to the house and get the ag tractor to pull your Prius out of the mud or snow.

George Carlin got it right a long time ago....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tncnWp67wQI

 

[Bud]

Jeez Louise, buy what you want and the heck with what others think. Its your money. Whole lotta folks out there that think they can tell you what to do and how to live.

 

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Ah yes; the pious and self-righteous platitudes of the True Green Believers- and if you think they are annoying and arrogant on an internet forum, you should have to endure the experience of meeting one in person...


Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.

They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!

I totally agree!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!




Why do you people have to label everyone who isn't exactly like you? Did you ever stop and think that these people may simply want to spend less money on gas?


I am talking about a VERY specific group of people. Those that feel they know what is the best for everybody else because, by their own metric, they are "smarter" (isn't it obvious? they drive a Prius!) and go out of the way to point that out with their noise in the air whenever they can.

The ones being labelled in this thread are everybody else. Labelled as stupid, as not caring about the environment, as smokers, alcoholics....etc. because they don't drive Hybrids. Did you read lovcom's post?

There are certainly people who simply drive a Hybrid for the fuel economy. The Critic isn't in this thread talking down to those who drive something different, despite the fact that he owns a Prius. I know the owner of a resort that drives one, same deal. He could care less what others drive and isn't salivating at the chance to engage in scathing discourse with the guy driving the lifted Duramax. My post wasn't about these people.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

I am talking about a VERY specific group of people. Those that feel they know what is the best for everybody else because, by their own metric, they are "smarter" (isn't it obvious? they drive a Prius!) and go out of the way to point that out with their noise in the air whenever they can.

The ones being labelled in this thread are everybody else. Labelled as stupid, as not caring about the environment, as smokers, alcoholics....etc. because they don't drive Hybrids. Did you read lovcom's post?

There are certainly people who simply drive a Hybrid for the fuel economy. The Critic isn't in this thread talking down to those who drive something different, despite the fact that he owns a Prius. I know the owner of a resort that drives one, same deal. He could care less what others drive and isn't salivating at the chance to engage in scathing discourse with the guy driving the lifted Duramax. My post wasn't about these people.


^^^ This.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL



In my experience there are those that have to make sure EVERYBODY knows just how green they are and how much they care about the planet. About how people who aren't like them are inferior in whatever list of ways they've decided upon. Then there are those with advanced medical degrees, engineering degrees....etc who actually go and make a difference. And the crazy part about those people is they rarely toot their own horn. They aren't out there rubbing it in other people's faces. Perhaps this is because doing something rewarding that has real, appreciable benefits associated with it is different than pretending.



Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!




Why do you people have to label everyone who isn't exactly like you? Did you ever stop and think that these people may simply want to spend less money on gas?


Less money on gas but much more money on buying the Hybrid.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Agreed. It does seem that the best selling hybrids are the ones that look different/unusual from other cars- the arrogant eco-weenies want to ensure that everyone knows that they are SAVING THE PLANET!!!

Same for EV vehicles except Tesla Model S and X and probably soon to be released Model 3.