I have a 93 Porsche rs america, Looking for some oil recommendations. I know Porsche came out with a motor oil for there older air-cooled cars, but I don't know a lot about it. I was looking at Valvoline Racing Synthetic VR1 in 20w-50. Is that a good choice? or is there better options out there?
Oil for an air-cooled 911
- Thread starter rsamerica
- Start date
Check Rennlist Porsche forums, sure you will find answers there from other owners. And check LNengineering Charles Navarro. He may recommend joe Gibbs driven DT50.
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Mobil 1 15w50
Originally Posted By: sds911
Check Rennlist Porsche forums, sure you will find answers there from other owners. And check LNengineering Charles Navarro. He may recommend joe Gibbs driven DT50.
He probably has checked the P-car Forums and is more confused than ever! Which is why he registered here to hopefully get a little clarity.
Check Rennlist Porsche forums, sure you will find answers there from other owners. And check LNengineering Charles Navarro. He may recommend joe Gibbs driven DT50.
He probably has checked the P-car Forums and is more confused than ever! Which is why he registered here to hopefully get a little clarity.
Also see here for other information. Looks like some people are using Mobil 1 0W40 and Mobil 1 5w50, others are using full synthetic 10w40 such as Redline. Then you have to make sure you have a good winter rating since you live in PA. If you only drive it in the summer you probably don't need anything 0wXX or 5wXX.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1140939
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1140939
Hi,
rsamerica - Welcome to BITOG
The Factory Museum at Zuffenhausen used/uses a mineral 20W-50 in all of their Classic Museum vehicles - warmed to 80C prior to using revs or serious loading
When servicing the 356 and early 911s when living in Denmark in the 1960s we only used a mineral HD20 or HD30
Mobil recommend M1 0W40, M1 5W-50 or HM10W-40. M1 15W-50 is also a good choice
I used Delvac 1 5W-40 in my water-cooled 928s'
rsamerica - Welcome to BITOG
The Factory Museum at Zuffenhausen used/uses a mineral 20W-50 in all of their Classic Museum vehicles - warmed to 80C prior to using revs or serious loading
When servicing the 356 and early 911s when living in Denmark in the 1960s we only used a mineral HD20 or HD30
Mobil recommend M1 0W40, M1 5W-50 or HM10W-40. M1 15W-50 is also a good choice
I used Delvac 1 5W-40 in my water-cooled 928s'
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Yes the Mobil 1 HM 10w40 is a great choice!
Originally Posted By: rsamerica
I was looking at Valvoline Racing Synthetic VR1 in 20w-50. Is that a good choice? or is there better options out there?
That would be an excellent oil. Honestly I think you would be fine with a 15W40 if just using around town style driving and not romping on it too much. If you drive spirited, than Mobil 1 15w50 or VR1 20W50 would be excellent choices.
I was looking at Valvoline Racing Synthetic VR1 in 20w-50. Is that a good choice? or is there better options out there?
That would be an excellent oil. Honestly I think you would be fine with a 15W40 if just using around town style driving and not romping on it too much. If you drive spirited, than Mobil 1 15w50 or VR1 20W50 would be excellent choices.
Hi,
Lolvoguy - No there wouldn't be a problem. Porsches originally ran HDEOs with the 356 and first 911 series
Lolvoguy - No there wouldn't be a problem. Porsches originally ran HDEOs with the 356 and first 911 series
What I take away from the Rennlist forum and LN Engineering/Flat 6 Innovations is that a 15W50 works well for the air cooled Porsches for street applications, might want something more if you are tracking the car. LN/Charles Navarro recommend a higher ZDDP oil, like DT50, Brad Penn, Motul etc. for extra protection in the long term on the street, and Joe Gibbs racing oil for the track (DT9?). If ambient temps are below 90 degrees F, then maybe you won't need the 15W50. This is simply a summary of what I've read. In my own case of a 996 water-cooled I've used Mobil 1 0W40, Castrol (see my UOA posts on this forum for a comparison), and now I'm on DT40 and will also probably use Motul 5W40 in future fills.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...0W4#Post3165546
In any case, the OP can get a lot of good info from the Rennlist forums from actual owners who street and track their cars. I'm sure many of them post here too.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...0W4#Post3165546
In any case, the OP can get a lot of good info from the Rennlist forums from actual owners who street and track their cars. I'm sure many of them post here too.
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After a lot of reading over 18 months, including a period of suffering ZDDP anxiety and realising that 99.5% of what is posted on internet forums is not based on fact, I posted the following on my local Porsche forum to alleviate the anxiety that I know many of my fellow enthusiasts suffer. Hope this helps!
Engine Oil for Air Cooled 911’s – Select in 3 Easy Steps
The other day I was asked by someone who only has a passing interest in engine oil (can you imagine that!) on how they should select and offer the following suggestion:
1) Drive to your favourite auto parts store.
There is no need to special order oil over the internet and pay high shipping for some oil that has internet folk law, just go to your local store or service station.
2) Choose your viscosity grade preference.
For our purposes, something between 5W-40 and 20W-50 will be fine.
Don’t waste sleep on this as it doesn’t materially matter as we will neither live long enough nor have enough objective data to be definitive in our choice.
3) Porsche A40 Approved or a Suitable API/ACEA Service Classification?
Your Driver Manual probably references API service classification like SH, SJ, SL or similar which was all that was available at the time and have been long superseded by much better oils.
If money is no object, just buy 10 litres of Porsche A40 approved oil. You pay a premium for this but if anyone knows best, it has to be the manufacturer. However the likely number of oils on the shop shelves that have this approval will be small, will take some reading of labels to identify these few and you will pay a substantial premium for this comfort.
However if you can’t see the value in using a Porsche approved oil, I suggest choosing an oil that meets ACEA specification A3/B4. Why? The ACEA A3/B4 approval will guarantee a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) of greater than 3.5 mPa.s just like Porsche themselves specify and the relatively high ash (SAPS) limit of 1.6% does not adversely limit the use of anti-wear additives. There are other good reasons too but that's for another time.
Using the ACEA rather than the API classifications also makes it simpler in identifying suitable oils because of this direct correlation between what Porsche specify and what the A3/B4 specification delivers.
Applying the above gives plenty of choice
Engine Oil for Air Cooled 911’s – Select in 3 Easy Steps
The other day I was asked by someone who only has a passing interest in engine oil (can you imagine that!) on how they should select and offer the following suggestion:
1) Drive to your favourite auto parts store.
There is no need to special order oil over the internet and pay high shipping for some oil that has internet folk law, just go to your local store or service station.
2) Choose your viscosity grade preference.
For our purposes, something between 5W-40 and 20W-50 will be fine.
Don’t waste sleep on this as it doesn’t materially matter as we will neither live long enough nor have enough objective data to be definitive in our choice.
3) Porsche A40 Approved or a Suitable API/ACEA Service Classification?
Your Driver Manual probably references API service classification like SH, SJ, SL or similar which was all that was available at the time and have been long superseded by much better oils.
If money is no object, just buy 10 litres of Porsche A40 approved oil. You pay a premium for this but if anyone knows best, it has to be the manufacturer. However the likely number of oils on the shop shelves that have this approval will be small, will take some reading of labels to identify these few and you will pay a substantial premium for this comfort.
However if you can’t see the value in using a Porsche approved oil, I suggest choosing an oil that meets ACEA specification A3/B4. Why? The ACEA A3/B4 approval will guarantee a High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) of greater than 3.5 mPa.s just like Porsche themselves specify and the relatively high ash (SAPS) limit of 1.6% does not adversely limit the use of anti-wear additives. There are other good reasons too but that's for another time.
Using the ACEA rather than the API classifications also makes it simpler in identifying suitable oils because of this direct correlation between what Porsche specify and what the A3/B4 specification delivers.
Applying the above gives plenty of choice
Originally Posted By: typ901
Originally Posted By: sds911
Check Rennlist Porsche forums, sure you will find answers there from other owners. And check LNengineering Charles Navarro. He may recommend joe Gibbs driven DT50.
He probably has checked the P-car Forums and is more confused than ever! Which is why he registered here to hopefully get a little clarity.
That's how I ended up on BITOG too!
I found Rennlist and Pelican forums almost useless and I question the validity of advice being given by people who profit from their advice. I also question their knowledge as some of the reasoning given and sample sizes that they base their advice on is at best poor. The classic example is 911 lobe "wear" where lack of ZDDP is the "folklaw" reason (I actually suspect corrosion pitting is the primary cause).
Originally Posted By: sds911
Check Rennlist Porsche forums, sure you will find answers there from other owners. And check LNengineering Charles Navarro. He may recommend joe Gibbs driven DT50.
He probably has checked the P-car Forums and is more confused than ever! Which is why he registered here to hopefully get a little clarity.
That's how I ended up on BITOG too!
I found Rennlist and Pelican forums almost useless and I question the validity of advice being given by people who profit from their advice. I also question their knowledge as some of the reasoning given and sample sizes that they base their advice on is at best poor. The classic example is 911 lobe "wear" where lack of ZDDP is the "folklaw" reason (I actually suspect corrosion pitting is the primary cause).
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Yes, any oil discussion whether on BITOG or Rennlist can be similar to discussing religion or politics.
But, I think looking at what other owners are using and those that actually re-build the blown engines or build replacement engines have some credibility. Why would a shop like flat 6 tell you to use a 5W40 from Motul over the Mobil 0W40, unless they believed it really helps in the long run? Wouldn't they be better off not saying anything so they get more rebuilds? I think their recommendations are backed up by their experience. In my case, I have their IMS Solution, so will use what they recommend with that product. Porsche won't stand behind their engines after the warranty is up, even when they know they had up to a 10% failure rate in the IMS bearings for 2001 to 2004.
Well, anyway -- I think you hit the nail on the head in your point 2 in your post, which is there are many oils that will serve the OP's purpose.
My own UOAs seem to confirm that Mobil, Castrol (and I'm sure DT40 on my next UOA) all perform very well.
But, I think looking at what other owners are using and those that actually re-build the blown engines or build replacement engines have some credibility. Why would a shop like flat 6 tell you to use a 5W40 from Motul over the Mobil 0W40, unless they believed it really helps in the long run? Wouldn't they be better off not saying anything so they get more rebuilds? I think their recommendations are backed up by their experience. In my case, I have their IMS Solution, so will use what they recommend with that product. Porsche won't stand behind their engines after the warranty is up, even when they know they had up to a 10% failure rate in the IMS bearings for 2001 to 2004.
Well, anyway -- I think you hit the nail on the head in your point 2 in your post, which is there are many oils that will serve the OP's purpose.
My own UOAs seem to confirm that Mobil, Castrol (and I'm sure DT40 on my next UOA) all perform very well.
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Hi SDS,
I don't disagree with your logic of using the oil that Flat 6 recommend for your 996 given their and the M96 engine track record however I'm interested in moving the oil debate on from the common internet banter of brand X is great and brand Y is sh$t.
There is simply insufficient data to establish ranking like that and I don't think mechanics have a representative sample size to make that call that either. Unfortunately I have found it is often the noisiest and most self assured mechanics that get their root cause analysis wrong. (Then again it must be good for their businesses if they have all the answers!)
Consequently I'm interested in identify what oil classifications best suit, in my case air cooled 911's, as I can't see how anyone can really differentiate at any level more specific that that even when using UOA's because of their limitations.
How I see it, an oil label that states it has Porsche A40 approval, meets or exceeds ACEA A3/B4 and even MB229.5 gives me much more objective verification that it is a good oil for my purposes than anything else I can think of.
I'm very happy to be shown and to correct any error in my logic and have certainly changed my views in the last 18 months. Changing a 35 year habit of using 20w-50 of various API classifications didn't come easily!
Regards
I don't disagree with your logic of using the oil that Flat 6 recommend for your 996 given their and the M96 engine track record however I'm interested in moving the oil debate on from the common internet banter of brand X is great and brand Y is sh$t.
There is simply insufficient data to establish ranking like that and I don't think mechanics have a representative sample size to make that call that either. Unfortunately I have found it is often the noisiest and most self assured mechanics that get their root cause analysis wrong. (Then again it must be good for their businesses if they have all the answers!)
Consequently I'm interested in identify what oil classifications best suit, in my case air cooled 911's, as I can't see how anyone can really differentiate at any level more specific that that even when using UOA's because of their limitations.
How I see it, an oil label that states it has Porsche A40 approval, meets or exceeds ACEA A3/B4 and even MB229.5 gives me much more objective verification that it is a good oil for my purposes than anything else I can think of.
I'm very happy to be shown and to correct any error in my logic and have certainly changed my views in the last 18 months. Changing a 35 year habit of using 20w-50 of various API classifications didn't come easily!
Regards
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Originally Posted By: Peter_M
I'm very happy to be shown and to correct any error in my logic
I'm of the mindset that you're placing an inordinate emphasis on manufacturer recommendations -- you have to stop and ask yourself why the specification exists in the first place. Is it to deliver the best performance possible, or achieve acceptable returns across the product spectrum, establish a SKU that can be ordered/stocked easily, and subsequently poured into whatever comes into the service department?
Take A40, for example. Would you agree that there's a sizable difference in engine construction/configuration between that of an '84 Carrera 3.2 vs. new Panamera...and that just maybe you'd be better served in selecting a oil for each application individually?
I'm very happy to be shown and to correct any error in my logic
I'm of the mindset that you're placing an inordinate emphasis on manufacturer recommendations -- you have to stop and ask yourself why the specification exists in the first place. Is it to deliver the best performance possible, or achieve acceptable returns across the product spectrum, establish a SKU that can be ordered/stocked easily, and subsequently poured into whatever comes into the service department?
Take A40, for example. Would you agree that there's a sizable difference in engine construction/configuration between that of an '84 Carrera 3.2 vs. new Panamera...and that just maybe you'd be better served in selecting a oil for each application individually?
Oh, I don't know about an "inordinate" emphasis on manufacturer recommendations but I think the original vehicle user manuals and the subsequent manufacturer TSB's are good place to start!
What I've tried to do is place a contemporary interpretation on the manufacturer recommendations of the time. For example where it was originally recommended an oil should meet API SH or SL specifications, I'd suggest ACEA A3/B4 would be the better modern and compatible equivalent. And similarly A40 and MB229.5 is probably another step up the confidence ladder from A3/B4.
I'm not sure how we could take the selection any further for the post '84 series of air cooled engines. Could you give me an example of what you mean by "you'd be better served in selecting a oil for each application individually?"
What I've tried to do is place a contemporary interpretation on the manufacturer recommendations of the time. For example where it was originally recommended an oil should meet API SH or SL specifications, I'd suggest ACEA A3/B4 would be the better modern and compatible equivalent. And similarly A40 and MB229.5 is probably another step up the confidence ladder from A3/B4.
I'm not sure how we could take the selection any further for the post '84 series of air cooled engines. Could you give me an example of what you mean by "you'd be better served in selecting a oil for each application individually?"
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Hi,
Peter_M - IMO you are using excellent choices yourself. Porsche was the first OEM to use a synthetic FF around 1989 - IIRC it was Shell's XMO 5W-40
Shell's lubricants have always been of excellent quality and quite advanced in the scheme of things
Peter_M - IMO you are using excellent choices yourself. Porsche was the first OEM to use a synthetic FF around 1989 - IIRC it was Shell's XMO 5W-40
Shell's lubricants have always been of excellent quality and quite advanced in the scheme of things
