Poor Hybrid sales threaten 2025 CAFE targets
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Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
Well, I would prefer to be on the side of those who can actually discuss what is going on, unlike some state's officials:
And I will take science over belief any day.
And I will take science over belief any day.
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
I'm not sure if you're interested in history and other nations, but the biggest messes, just looking at the modern history, were all caused by groups of people or individuals that thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they knew what's best for everyone.
There will always be people that think they're above everyone else, but at the same time I've never met a stupid person that thought they were stupid, quite contrary.
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
I'm not sure if you're interested in history and other nations, but the biggest messes, just looking at the modern history, were all caused by groups of people or individuals that thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they knew what's best for everyone.
There will always be people that think they're above everyone else, but at the same time I've never met a stupid person that thought they were stupid, quite contrary.
They were usually caused by people who believed they heard voices in their heads, also.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
I'm not sure if you're interested in history and other nations, but the biggest messes, just looking at the modern history, were all caused by groups of people or individuals that thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they knew what's best for everyone.
There will always be people that think they're above everyone else, but at the same time I've never met a stupid person that thought they were stupid, quite contrary.
On the other hand, who thinks letting Wall Street(and other nations equivalents) decide what's best for the planet is going to turn out well for the majority of us?
Even 300lb Bubba in his lifted 10mpg pick up knows how that's going to work out if he shut off the rich guys mouthpieces on TV and thought about it for a minute...
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Yep, the smart folks who will save us from ourselves are here. Bravo.
They embarrass themselves with their pious dribble. Especially the [censored] about how intelligent they are!
That IS the funniest part.
What sure isn't funny is the mess we're in.
I'm not sure if you're interested in history and other nations, but the biggest messes, just looking at the modern history, were all caused by groups of people or individuals that thought they were smarter than everyone else and that they knew what's best for everyone.
There will always be people that think they're above everyone else, but at the same time I've never met a stupid person that thought they were stupid, quite contrary.
On the other hand, who thinks letting Wall Street(and other nations equivalents) decide what's best for the planet is going to turn out well for the majority of us?
Even 300lb Bubba in his lifted 10mpg pick up knows how that's going to work out if he shut off the rich guys mouthpieces on TV and thought about it for a minute...
The rich are overwhelmingly addicted to money and they have a lot more power than a crack/meth/name-a-drug addict which makes the rich much more dangerous to the average person.
^^^^Absolute nonsense. Man, they feed you and you ate it up!
I happen to work for dozens of folks you might call "rich". Frankly, they are some fine folks. Active in their communities and their houses of worship, too. Give more to charities, etc. Also pay FAR more in taxes than any other segment of the population.
I'm much more concerned with the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" types. They are the most annoying...
I happen to work for dozens of folks you might call "rich". Frankly, they are some fine folks. Active in their communities and their houses of worship, too. Give more to charities, etc. Also pay FAR more in taxes than any other segment of the population.
I'm much more concerned with the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" types. They are the most annoying...
Steve,
I think we need to define rich here. I'm talking about the 0.1%. The ones with legions of lawyers, lobbyists, Super PACs, congressmen, and more on the payroll. Plenty of the merely wealthy are very hard workers and they do pay a larger percentage of their income than many other people, but they can also well afford to do so.
Let's not bring religion into this. "Belief" is fraught with issues. The smartest person in the room is only dangerous when he wields power. Annoying doesn't mean jack squat. A bug on the windshield in the line of sight is annoying. Landscapers with blowers are annoying. The rich engineering economic schemes for their own benefit which end in disaster for MOST Americans is NOT annoying. Just ask the people who bought Florida real estate at market value 10 years ago and can't get out from under it what annoying is.
I think we need to define rich here. I'm talking about the 0.1%. The ones with legions of lawyers, lobbyists, Super PACs, congressmen, and more on the payroll. Plenty of the merely wealthy are very hard workers and they do pay a larger percentage of their income than many other people, but they can also well afford to do so.
Let's not bring religion into this. "Belief" is fraught with issues. The smartest person in the room is only dangerous when he wields power. Annoying doesn't mean jack squat. A bug on the windshield in the line of sight is annoying. Landscapers with blowers are annoying. The rich engineering economic schemes for their own benefit which end in disaster for MOST Americans is NOT annoying. Just ask the people who bought Florida real estate at market value 10 years ago and can't get out from under it what annoying is.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^^Absolute nonsense. Man, they feed you and you ate it up!
I happen to work for dozens of folks you might call "rich". Frankly, they are some fine folks. Active in their communities and their houses of worship, too. Give more to charities, etc. Also pay FAR more in taxes than any other segment of the population.
I'm much more concerned with the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" types. They are the most annoying...
Exactly!
^^^^Absolute nonsense. Man, they feed you and you ate it up!
I happen to work for dozens of folks you might call "rich". Frankly, they are some fine folks. Active in their communities and their houses of worship, too. Give more to charities, etc. Also pay FAR more in taxes than any other segment of the population.
I'm much more concerned with the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" types. They are the most annoying...
Exactly!
Originally Posted By: grampi
How many long trips do you make in a year? If it's once or twice, then you fit into the same category of those who buy gas hogging F-350s because they need to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, and then they use that same vehicle for every day driving...in other words, a huge waste...
Quite a few actually. Generally once a month for family reasons, a few times per year for work reasons, and at least one long vacation.
And, this type of attitude is what bothers me about those who claim I'm wasteful. They are happy to try and control me and what I do, without ever walking a mile in my shoes. In fact, you could claim that my FL to TN trip is wasteful. So is my home AC. So is my toaster. Who needs toast... It never ends. Reduxio ad Absurdum.
I tried the small car thing. It did not work out well for my family. I will choose what works for me. Period. I have zero interest in "looking cool". I do have an interest in transporting my family in safety and comfort.
Not only that, but I got so many speeding tickets, I bought an airplane. It gets me there in 1/4 the time and gets 25MPG doing so.
How many long trips do you make in a year? If it's once or twice, then you fit into the same category of those who buy gas hogging F-350s because they need to tow their 5th wheel once or twice a year, and then they use that same vehicle for every day driving...in other words, a huge waste...
Quite a few actually. Generally once a month for family reasons, a few times per year for work reasons, and at least one long vacation.
And, this type of attitude is what bothers me about those who claim I'm wasteful. They are happy to try and control me and what I do, without ever walking a mile in my shoes. In fact, you could claim that my FL to TN trip is wasteful. So is my home AC. So is my toaster. Who needs toast... It never ends. Reduxio ad Absurdum.
I tried the small car thing. It did not work out well for my family. I will choose what works for me. Period. I have zero interest in "looking cool". I do have an interest in transporting my family in safety and comfort.
Not only that, but I got so many speeding tickets, I bought an airplane. It gets me there in 1/4 the time and gets 25MPG doing so.
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Originally Posted By: lovcom
I do know why most Americans drive gas sucking vehicles. I know because I studied statistics back in college.
Americans drive big gas sucking trucks and V8 cars USUALLY because it is fashion for them. They do not care about the environment. They do not care about the earth. They are not as smart and wise as hybrid drivers.
All Hybrid models fill ALL gaps in the market accept those gaps that deal with towing heavy louds, and commercial applications.
It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and evironment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.
The dumbest are those that drive Dodge Chargers, with the big 21" rims.
Study demographics and you will see this too.
Considering his statement that people that drive trucks and V8 cars are "not as smart and wise as hybrid drivers", and the Prius C that is in his signature, I have never seen a larger load of self-aggrandizing poo in any post on BITOG.
He must have thrown his shoulder out of joint patting himself on the back.
I do know why most Americans drive gas sucking vehicles. I know because I studied statistics back in college.
Americans drive big gas sucking trucks and V8 cars USUALLY because it is fashion for them. They do not care about the environment. They do not care about the earth. They are not as smart and wise as hybrid drivers.
All Hybrid models fill ALL gaps in the market accept those gaps that deal with towing heavy louds, and commercial applications.
It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and evironment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.
The dumbest are those that drive Dodge Chargers, with the big 21" rims.
Study demographics and you will see this too.
Considering his statement that people that drive trucks and V8 cars are "not as smart and wise as hybrid drivers", and the Prius C that is in his signature, I have never seen a larger load of self-aggrandizing poo in any post on BITOG.
He must have thrown his shoulder out of joint patting himself on the back.
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You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
An ignition tune up would make a big difference too.
Also, consider that the Porsche 918 and Mclaren P1 are Hybrid and they put out more emissions than smaller, lighter, fossil fuel only vehicles.
There are too many variables to make a statement like that.
An ignition tune up would make a big difference too.
Also, consider that the Porsche 918 and Mclaren P1 are Hybrid and they put out more emissions than smaller, lighter, fossil fuel only vehicles.
There are too many variables to make a statement like that.
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
You do know that even the mighty Prius won't meet the 2025 CAFE numbers. At this point, it does not look technically possible to meet the requirements without some form of electric drive.
Unless we can reduce cars weight by about half, reduce aerodynamic drag by 50% and increase BSFC by 50% or more, we will not meet CAFE requirements with current or projected internal combustion technology.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
You do know that even the mighty Prius won't meet the 2025 CAFE numbers. At this point, it does not look technically possible to meet the requirements without some form of electric drive.
Unless we can reduce cars weight by about half, reduce aerodynamic drag by 50% and increase BSFC by 50% or more, we will not meet CAFE requirements with current or projected internal combustion technology.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Steve,
I think we need to define rich here. I'm talking about the 0.1%. The ones with legions of lawyers, lobbyists, Super PACs, congressmen, and more on the payroll. Plenty of the merely wealthy are very hard workers and they do pay a larger percentage of their income than many other people, but they can also well afford to do so.
Let's not bring religion into this. "Belief" is fraught with issues. The smartest person in the room is only dangerous when he wields power. Annoying doesn't mean jack squat. A bug on the windshield in the line of sight is annoying. Landscapers with blowers are annoying. The rich engineering economic schemes for their own benefit which end in disaster for MOST Americans is NOT annoying. Just ask the people who bought Florida real estate at market value 10 years ago and can't get out from under it what annoying is.
Thanks for your comments, Josh.
No intent to inject religious dogma, just a comment on ethics.
I agree that the Tom Steyr and George Soros types are the issue. But many folks now think if you make even 100k a year you are "rich" due to relentless propaganda.
And please note I live in Florida and my house today is worth nearly double what I paid for it 12 years ago. Not everyone is unhappy with that, just certain hard hit regions...
Steve,
I think we need to define rich here. I'm talking about the 0.1%. The ones with legions of lawyers, lobbyists, Super PACs, congressmen, and more on the payroll. Plenty of the merely wealthy are very hard workers and they do pay a larger percentage of their income than many other people, but they can also well afford to do so.
Let's not bring religion into this. "Belief" is fraught with issues. The smartest person in the room is only dangerous when he wields power. Annoying doesn't mean jack squat. A bug on the windshield in the line of sight is annoying. Landscapers with blowers are annoying. The rich engineering economic schemes for their own benefit which end in disaster for MOST Americans is NOT annoying. Just ask the people who bought Florida real estate at market value 10 years ago and can't get out from under it what annoying is.
Thanks for your comments, Josh.
No intent to inject religious dogma, just a comment on ethics.
I agree that the Tom Steyr and George Soros types are the issue. But many folks now think if you make even 100k a year you are "rich" due to relentless propaganda.
And please note I live in Florida and my house today is worth nearly double what I paid for it 12 years ago. Not everyone is unhappy with that, just certain hard hit regions...
Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
I'm sure you also realize that those vehicles do not meet NA emission and safety standards?
That's what happens when you mix politics and rear world problems. On one end you have people fighting for the ever increasing safety standards (more weight) and decreasing emission levels (usually means burning more fuel) and on the other you have people fighting for increased fuel economy.
It's like saving NA form foreign oil and at the same time blocking local oil fields from being drilled.
Nothing more than a puppet show for the masses.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You don't need a hybrid to hit cafe numbers, you need a lit car with small displacement and high power density.
In fact, even the incredibly aerodynamic, tiny and useless vehicles such as the ELIO won't meet the requirements. (49MPG)
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
I'm sure you also realize that those vehicles do not meet NA emission and safety standards?
That's what happens when you mix politics and rear world problems. On one end you have people fighting for the ever increasing safety standards (more weight) and decreasing emission levels (usually means burning more fuel) and on the other you have people fighting for increased fuel economy.
It's like saving NA form foreign oil and at the same time blocking local oil fields from being drilled.
Nothing more than a puppet show for the masses.
Originally Posted By: Olas
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Drove a 2006 DSG, PD Jetta for years. 42MPG. I could hyper-mile it and get 65MPG. But that took serious effort and was absolutely not practical. 45MPH limit, shut off engine 0.6 miles from stop sign and coast to it, no AC, manually upshift the engine into 6th ASAP. And, hold up everybody. Emergency flashers required....
Yes, diesel engines are fantastic. I wish we had more of them. However, the reality is no current diesel powered, "mid sized" car will achieve 2025, CAFE MPG of 54.5 combined highway/city (50-50) Nor is there any conventional technology which will produce that number. In fact, the diesels with BSFC lower than 200gm/hp/hr are pushing the limits of internal combustion efficiency.
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Drove a 2006 DSG, PD Jetta for years. 42MPG. I could hyper-mile it and get 65MPG. But that took serious effort and was absolutely not practical. 45MPH limit, shut off engine 0.6 miles from stop sign and coast to it, no AC, manually upshift the engine into 6th ASAP. And, hold up everybody. Emergency flashers required....
Yes, diesel engines are fantastic. I wish we had more of them. However, the reality is no current diesel powered, "mid sized" car will achieve 2025, CAFE MPG of 54.5 combined highway/city (50-50) Nor is there any conventional technology which will produce that number. In fact, the diesels with BSFC lower than 200gm/hp/hr are pushing the limits of internal combustion efficiency.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Olas
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Drove a 2006 DSG, PD Jetta for years. 42MPG. I could hyper-mile it and get 65MPG. But that took serious effort and was absolutely not practical. 45MPH limit, shut off engine 0.6 miles from stop sign and coast to it, no AC, manually upshift the engine into 6th ASAP. And, hold up everybody. Emergency flashers required....
Yes, diesel engines are fantastic. I wish we had more of them. However, the reality is no current diesel powered, "mid sized" car will achieve 2025, CAFE MPG of 54.5 combined highway/city (50-50) Nor is there any conventional technology which will produce that number. In fact, the diesels with BSFC lower than 200gm/hp/hr are pushing the limits of internal combustion efficiency.
In Bosnia, I was averaging 51.6mpg with Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI (PD) and manual.
Also, my brother has a fleet of Skoda's Octavia's 1.6tdi 90hp. They are all hovering between 55 and 60.
Originally Posted By: Olas
You do know that VAG TDI's, both VE and PD, have been averaging 50 something and breaking into the high 60s low 70s for at least ten years now, don't you?
Drove a 2006 DSG, PD Jetta for years. 42MPG. I could hyper-mile it and get 65MPG. But that took serious effort and was absolutely not practical. 45MPH limit, shut off engine 0.6 miles from stop sign and coast to it, no AC, manually upshift the engine into 6th ASAP. And, hold up everybody. Emergency flashers required....
Yes, diesel engines are fantastic. I wish we had more of them. However, the reality is no current diesel powered, "mid sized" car will achieve 2025, CAFE MPG of 54.5 combined highway/city (50-50) Nor is there any conventional technology which will produce that number. In fact, the diesels with BSFC lower than 200gm/hp/hr are pushing the limits of internal combustion efficiency.
In Bosnia, I was averaging 51.6mpg with Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI (PD) and manual.
Also, my brother has a fleet of Skoda's Octavia's 1.6tdi 90hp. They are all hovering between 55 and 60.
Originally Posted By: lovcom
It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and environment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.
You think rather highly of yourself and your lot. From your scientific proof it sounds like a hybrid car in every driveway could almost fix America.
It has been shown scientifically, that the more a person cares about the earth and environment, the more likely they are intelligent, less likely to smoke cigs, abuse alcohol, and be over weight. Hybrid drivers are also more likely to have advanced degrees, and be upper middle class or better.
You think rather highly of yourself and your lot. From your scientific proof it sounds like a hybrid car in every driveway could almost fix America.
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