economy - I'm worried

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Good post from you ,too, Terry!

I just wanted to jump back in....after freezing my a$$ off hanging the Christmas lights (yeah I know there is nothing in the Bible about Christmas lights, if you ignore the north star)....anyhow I couldn't pass a mug of warm cider and my copy of IBD up....anyhow to answer the original question (not THAT original question): SALES are WAY UP......according to IBD.

NO reason to be gloomy, just know the problems and deal with them!! Stand up to the RMB!!
 
Pabs, I have to do the lights too and I must admit I am a scrooge.
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Since you trade directly with China I really respect your insight.

I was told I couldn't be a Christian and vote Kerry... now my wife is yelling that if I don't get the lights up I am not a Christian. Its tough being me.... Pabs you gave legs to my argument for a moment...

Seems a lot of emphasis on birth of ***** when his real impact was dying and coming back to life ?

I love Thanksgiving and despise "CHRISTMAS".... as we know it.....

Get those credit cards out fellow citizens of the new world order and pump up my investments troops. Since adjusting my portfolio for the Bush win I am up significantly. Vote your heart and prepare/pad your financials moves......

A country boy wil survive.... now those stinking lights.
 
quote:

If we (as developed nations) cut back on agricultural subsidies, and the market prices started to reflect the actual cost of production, rather than the subsidised cost, apparently a lot of the countries currently recieving aid would be able to develop their own food supplies. Or at least manufacture ag products that they can export (swap) for other needs.

Seems strange the desire to hand money to farmers as subsidies, and as a result hand it out as foreign aid as well.

I believe that this is some Owellian trump card that we've held for a very long time. Our long term stategy has been to develop and industrialize other nations. Most agrarian nations are poor. Industrialization does a couple of things ..it lowers the birthrate ..but it also creates an interdependence with others. None of the young in Indonesia want to spend their life on their knees tending rice ..and want to go to the city to make $$ for a better life.

Back that up with a foreign aid package in the form of loans that typically has a debt that never ever gets paid off ..and you see that this whole thing is "seed" money. You make it so a nation can't afford to feed itself ..and you pile on a ton of debt in the way of loans that they can not pay. Plus ..most of our "foreign aid", even the free aid, has strings attached ...like having them hire a $10k/month American consultant (hello Haliburton or any other favorite pork receiver).

Another favorite coup is foreign aid that is in the form of arms sales. What was the term used ..privatized profits ..socialized costs???

I keep looking for the udders. I'm being milked enough
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quote:

Originally posted by jthorner:

quote:

look at the $ vs. the euro

Generally it is GOOD for US factories, farmers, etc. when the dollar is weak. This means that imports should become more costly and exports more competitive. The problem again is that with the Chinese Yuan locked in relationship to the dollar nothing slows the imports of Chinese goods, yet imports from other countries get hammered.
John


A weak dollar makes US goods more competitive and decreases international debt, but at the same time it makes raw material more expensive that increases production cost. But what's more important is that continuous dollar devaluation makes foreign investments into US economy less attractive. The last two years the rate of its devaluation was higher than the grow of US indexes, so that European investors already lost a lot. A renewal of bear trend on funds market together with a weakenning dollar may provoke investors to close their positions and this will further weaken US dollar.
 
I think it just costs a lot more to make most things in the U.S. due to environmental, worker protection, insurance, and other regulations. This leaves us uncompetitive in many areas compared to nations that don't have all that.
If Wal-Mart ever goes bankrupt, China will go under by Saturday.
 
Terry,

I still don't subscribe to that theory, sorry!
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I have alternate plans of action in place if a catastrophic event happened and caused the current upswing to develope a drop.

These "fat trimming" times that are past us are perfectly healthy and much needed.

People need to manage their lives and not let life manage them. Learn to adapt changing conditions, better yet plan for things to change well ahead of time and when it happens you have already planned for it. You don't drive a boat at night without lights, why lead your life that way.

Some folks are "helpless" and have an excuse but, its a very few. For the "others" its pure laziness and bad habits.

Simple rules very few follow:

1. Use a credit card only if its paid off when the bill comes in otherwise you can't afford it.

2. Only use transportation that is necessary to get your body and family from point "A" to point "B" safely. This vehicle should be maintained so that you will achieve a minimum of 15 years of life expectancy or 10 years note free. If you have "excess", disposeable income you may reduce the turnover time accordingly.

3. Use the savings from 1&2 to buy real estate with 10-15 year notes MAXIMUM.

4. Diversify any gains MONTHLY into profit driven investments. If its not "profitable" get rid of it.

If you do none of the above, don't complain, do it! If you do none of the above and still complain look in the mirror at yourself thats who you need to complain to.

That being said sales are up, things are good.
 
Wise words Amteer ..but what I find amusing is that most who subscribe to this tenet of economic self suffiency ...are ones who not only capitalize on the people who don't ...but pretend that our ecomomy could survive if everyone subscribed to it.


It just can't work for everyone ...nor the nation. It's a personal philosophy that assumes a high percentage of those who don't practice it for its own sucess. Imagine applying your principles on a $7-9/hr. income. Your car will be used and at a high interest rate....your home will be in a ghetto. Hardly anything you would want someone to aspire to ...since they cannot aspire. Sure there are those who can start at this origin and climb out of it ....but they all fall along the lines of the guy who had a friend that has a 1979 Chevy with over 400,000 miles and never changed his oil. What would our economy look like if everyone managed that??? Not every American can be Bill Gates ...not every economically distressed urban dweller can become Colen Powell.

It falls along the same lines if all of us were Einteins, Gates, Newton, Nucumen, etc. ..someone is going to be unemployed and flipping burgers.
 
Gary,

Of course it won't thats why I classify "others", lazy and bad habits. You we always have those that say that doesn't work and I can't do that too.
 
Sorry ..edited for shoot from the hip rhetoric.


(visions of Monty Python's Flying Circus) "..sorry ..I'm here for an arguement." This is abuse. Arguements are two doors down on the left"
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[ November 28, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
Gary,

Your counterpoint is imaginary and would never happen. I prefer to stick with real world results that work for anyone that wants to "work" them.

Some people are more than happy having debt to their ears. These folks could care less about working forever, or they don't think that far ahead. For those folks my points would cross on deaf ears.
 
Amkeer, good advice but you leave out one aspect of trimming costs and living frugally.( Just like the Republicans do). If the average worker is making significantly LESS revenue/income, no amount of trimming and frugality will stop the inevitable demise of that hard working and frugal workers family. You only delay the inevitable. Your investments are worthless unless those you invest in on the cheap, can also turn a profit.

Out of curiosity what is your job and revenue capability ? How old are you ? How many in the family ? If your job or whatever revenue stream stopped today, how long would your plan hold up ? Can you live off of and thrive on the current investments alone or is the actual pay out in the longer term ? Is the plan dependent on current income or projections of increases in salary or pay ?

If income does not rebound and we continue to tighten the noose around the "average" worker the recovery will be short lived and the downturn will be severe.

Gary is not so far off in his estimations , I fear.

The person who posted that we are being conditioned by lowering our standard of living to fit into the new world order may be more accurate than even he realizes.

Traveling and observing business and other economies, I don't disagree.
 
Terry, with all respect and affection, the talk of the "economy" cannot be combined on a micro and macro level.

I share your fears, believe me I share your fears. This is why I am disturbed when people choose leasing a luxury car to purchasing healthcare. It's why I am disturbed when young families want to know why mom and pop won't "give" them more of their nestegg to buy more clothes, cars, etc. but not save for their children's education.

It's why I am disturbed that everyone must have the latest widget in technology, must have cellphones that take photos and view these items as essentials and not luxuries.

I am disturbed that many young people view "spring break" as a right and not a priviledge, that touring Europe before starting a career is a priority, that a position in a corporation is expected as opposed to "earned"

I can't tell you how I've tightened my belt. I sincerely hope that I never own a car with an automated "navigation" system. Yes, Christmas has lost it's meaning in extravagance and excess and is not as heartwarming as Thanksgiving.

Terry, the bottom line is that a lot of hardworking, well intentioned people are going to lose their jobs through no fault of their own. I empathize with them and sympathize with them. It's really nothing new, if you call what's been going on since the '70s more than recent economic developments.

[ November 28, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: GROUCHO MARX ]
 
We get the economy that we deserve, to some degree by the way that we vote in elections, but I think mostly by how we vote with our money. What we spend our money on indicates what we think is important. Some expenses seem obvious, like housing and utilities, but there a lots of variables in where we live, the type of house, etc.

Increasingly it seems that we mostly value cheap imported stuff, even more than keeping jobs in one's own country. Like George Carlin observed a number of years ago, we want lots and lots of STUFF. The Romans seemed to get it right a couple of thousand years ago, as all one needs is bread (cheap credit) and the circus (tv) to keep the people content.

Another change taking place in the US, and it seems elsewhere, is the concentration of wealth that is taking place. Phillip Roth wrote a book on it after observing what took place after the Reagan tax cuts, in 'The Politics of Rich and Poor'. Things have been tough in the US for the last few years, right ? A local company, Christensen (?) Yachts, had to add a second shift to keep up with demand. Their bread and butter boats on average only cost $23 million.
 
Groucho,1struck, thanks for the thoughful posts and please, all note that I am no expert in finance or investing. In other words if it ain't oil analysis ignore me.
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I really try to stick to what I know. My business gut is telling me what we see now is very different than the downturns of yore.

Amkeer I am guessing is a young late 20's to 30 something and he is in an economy that will yield LESS to him for return on investment and work performed than you and I in the last 35 years. Because of that the standard of living IS eroding for all Americans.

I'm fearing that his demographic will be carrying this economy on their backs with no way to turn up the revenue.

Back to oil analysis for Mondays run.

[ November 28, 2004, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
The US has been drawing on savings to keep the US afloat. The following quote is from the link at the bottom.
"The drawdown of savings has produced this buying binge on the part of US consumers. This chart shows savings as a percentage of personal income has fallen to 0.2%. "

The savings rate is about to go negative if the trend keeps it up for to many more months. The trend is down and I don't see what will reverse it.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FK25Dj02.html
 
quote:

Originally posted by wulimaster:
The US has been drawing on savings to keep the US afloat. The following quote is from the link at the bottom.
"The drawdown of savings has produced this buying binge on the part of US consumers. This chart shows savings as a percentage of personal income has fallen to 0.2%. "

The savings rate is about to go negative if the trend keeps it up for to many more months. The trend is down and I don't see what will reverse it.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FK25Dj02.html


Great article!
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Great Debate Folks.

Remember that any economist worth his salt will approach his art with a great deal of humility. My father likes to joke about the two handed economist who says on the one hand things may be bad but on the other hand .......

Anyway my own opinions with an admitted iron in the fire is that we are somewhere in between the two extremes debated on this forum.

To be sure, I have an economic theory predicated on the mathematical principle of the least common denominator. To try and simplify and explain it belies the concept that all economic activity will revert to the lowest level of performance. Much as water flows downhill and accumulates in streams, rivers, lakes, and ponds the economy will flow towards end providers of value.

Lets pick on Wal-Mart. Obviously, its shameful that they pay their employees peanuts. But shoppers want value so thats where they go. Other businesses that compete with Wal-Mart are then forced to lower wages and end prices of their goods and services or Wal-Mart takes their customers and forces them into bankruptcy. When other businesses lower wages to compete with Wal-Mart then WMT stands up and announces that they pay competitive wages and they arent to blame. Its a viscious cycle and the wages trend to the least common denominator. WMT dropping American suppliers to buy cheaper products from China isnt helping matters and again wages fall to the least common denominator.

Some like Warren Buffet claim that WMT has kept inflation in check and is good for the country. As a two handed economist, I ask at what cost has this been achieved. I know for a fact that WMT starts their employees off at .25 cents above minimum wage and that 1990 salaries began at $4.50 and 2004 salaries begin at $5.40. 10 states have higher than federal minimum wage laws but you get the picture. Adjusting for inflation, the new WMT employee that started yesterday is being paid far less than the WMT employee that started in 1990. A few stores here and there pay more to accomodate high demand areas of employment but its not much more.

The profits WMT generates are staggering but their million plus employees often live at the poverty level. The Walton family is worth more than Warren Buffet and Bill Gates combined and yet their employees often starve. I know that its not uncommon for WMT stores to have internal fund raising efforts for poverty level employees that go through normal crises events that others could handle with more ability. Additionally, WMT "encourages" their employees to do most of their charity work such as raising money for Childrens Miracle Network, United Way, WMT political action committee, and other charitable causes that WMT likes to take credit for as for being benevolant in their community.

The University of California at Berkeley did a study and found that WMT employees were so poorly paid that California had to pay out close to $100 million per year in taxpayer assistance to poverty level workers who needed it. Among programs cited were food stamps, housing assistance, welfare, education assistance, health care, and many other government programs to help those considered poor. UCB stated that each WMT store required about $300,000 in government assistance to keep its employees functionally poor. UCB based the study on employees making $9.70 per hour while WMT contended that the numbers were wrong because their employees in California averaged $10.37 per hour. UCB stated that each employee in California required almost $2000 per year in government assistance to help them get by while other retailers in California averaged over $14 per hour in wages.

I will flat out state in no uncertain terms that in Texas which doesnt have a higher than national minimum wage that WMT employees frequently start at $5.40 an hour and arent even close to the $9.70 average that California has. WMT's raises are infrequent (once per year) and small (perhaps .30 cents per year). I have a friend thats worked for WMT for 15 years and makes $8.60 per hour. She works hard and you dont last 15 years at WMT unless you do. She does get government assistance and it makes me want to puke that I have to pay taxes to subsidize the employee wages of the largest most succesful and powerful corporation in the world while the richest people in the world (the Walton family) continue to rake in more billions of dollars while their employees starve. Those cheap prices come at a cost.

Obviously, its hard to find places to shop other than WMT because they dominate the industry. We talk a lot about Supertech filters and GF-4 oil and WMT is frequently the place to find them.

I dont think a day or single store is representative of the economy of WMT but their post thanksgiving ad this year stunk and many of their specials you could find at WMT.com without the hassle of fighting other customers at 5 AM to get them.

As for myself, I ordered a couple of DVDs from WMT.com and went to Sears and bought some gear wrenches without the hassle that others endured. I might have missed a sale or two at WMT but who cares?

I applaud those that take a moral stand against WMT and boycott the place but in reality they dominate retailing and avoiding WMT is difficult and especially so when you live in a small to medium size town where WMT has decimated most of the former small businesses in the area. My town had 8 hardware stores before WMT showed up and now we have 2 and our local ACE hardware store makes more money selling candles than tools. Its hard to avoid WMT considering the circumstances.

In the end, WMT will get it comeuppance. Greed will take over and sink the company. Suppliers will rebel against the companys heavy handed tactics and employees wages will have to rise. Politicians will wake up to the costs of low wages and force change. Greed enhancing measures like understaffed service, dirty stores, freight thrown on the floor, long checkout lines, shopping carts banging into cars on the parking lot, and all those other little things customers hate will eventually catch up to WMT. There are 5 stages in any endeavor and they are:

1. The dream or idea that sparks conception
2. Effort and work to achieve production of the dream.
3. Success and reward
4. Taking reward and success for granted
5. Eventual failure

WMT is in stage four of the cycle.

As far as debt, I have to agree that the entire portion of our so called economic expansion has been financed by the willingness of American citizens, businesses, and government entities to take on debt and spend money not yet earned. I know of churches that have taken on debt that cant be paid back and towards which banks are unwilling to foreclose. One church in my town was quitely sold so two churches could swap buildings and accomodate the banks that held the notes on them. We have grown the economy based on individuals, businesses, corporations, other entities, and governments from local towards national accumulating more debt.

Those that follow statistics estimate that close to 40% of the people in this country will go bankrupt in the next couple of decades. Honestly, Ive never defaulted on anything that Ive ever owned and even I get called by moron credit counselors at least 4-5 times per week. Debt and bankruptcy doesnt seem to have the moral stigma that it did when I was a boy. Its almost commonplace and expected and encouraged and its the foundation of our countries economic strength.

Even with these problems there are some signs of positive developments in this country. You look at a company like Honda of America and they hire American engineers to design vehicles built in American factories with 75% American made part content and they pay taxes on their profits like an American corporation and they are making money hands over fists. Still, here in Texas if you buy a "Japanese" car there are a whole lot of people that look at you like you are a communist and remind you that their cousins great grandfather gave his life fighting the evil Japanese that attacked this country 63 years ago. The fact that the Saturn Vue uses the same Japanese built engine as does the Pilot doesnt register. The fact that HMC is traded on the New York stock exchange doesnt register.

Anyway, my point is that Honda can come here and hire American engineers to design a car then build a factory that employs American workers and use mostly American built and supplied parts and make a fine car that Americans buy, appreciate, and use.

Therefore, when you open the window and look for cracks of light dawning in the darkness you can find them.

Anytime we discuss economics then its best to at least try and leave the discussion of the art on a positive and hopeful note. There are problems but there are also showcases of hope that prove that Americans work hard, are innovative, can produce good products. There are still areas of expertise where we can lead the world and our economy will benefit from them.

Happy Motoring All,

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Bugshu
 
Bugshu,
that was a great post.

Problem is that all of these "corrections" that come in to the market are usually at the expense of those who are weakest in the market.

If Walmart gets their comeupance, then their state subsidised employees cop it in the neck.

The Aussie property market is due to be corrected by 20%, and I can see around me at work, the people who are going to be belted due to a decision that they made "under good advice" a few years ago.

The developers are pulling their heads in, and it's the hard working suckers who will get screwed.

Your story about Honda was something that I'd not heard before, and was inspiration at least that things aren't always that bad.
 
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