Thinner oils and higher wear

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Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fourside
The problem with this argument is that it always ends up with a lot of people asking questions like yours above. No, I cannot guarantee that thicker oil wouldn't give an engine a longer life. No, you cannot guarantee that thinner oils will give an engine a shorter life. So where's this debate supposed to go?
I asked myself the same question.Does Pontual agree with the premise of the original article or disagree with it?
Exactly. The fact that there is no one size fits all makes the question impossible to answer.
+ 1 - meanwhile, engines specified for thin oils keep spinning as do engines specified for thick oil...
 
Quote:
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.


Undoubtedly not a chemist or formulator who would know there are othe AW additives not seen seen in a $25 voa.
 
Do you guys realize this thread has had 10,409 views so far?

No doubt the result of the most alarming thread title in internet history.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.


Not all additives are heat activated. For example, Calcium and Boron work at low temps.


Still, the Sequence IVA is chosen to be at the "sweet spot" for wear, which is as viscosity is dropping and additive function isn't the greatest.
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure Avgas leads to lead accumulation
wink.gif
Aircraft engine oils use bromide salt as lead scavenger and it will accumulate in the oil, then the hot centrifuge will (would since isn't used in Lycomings, Franklins and Continentals) get some visible stuff, IMO since no leaded fuel is found anymore, for cars around here.


Sorry, you are wrong. Ethylene dibromide is added to the fuel as a lead scavenger. Aircraft engine oils do not contain bromide salts as an additive. The bromide salts found in used oil are contaminates from the reactions of fuel combustion.

Ed


You're absolutely right, I said "oil", but meant acft engine fuel that use bromides to combat lead deposits, going to the oil by blowby, hence leadsludge would accumulate in the centrifuge.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


In contrast, the relatively short time between rebuilds on a bike, the small sump volume and the insignificance of a fluid change (not to mention the extra bulk of fitting a centrifuge) doesn't make sense.



Honda CG125 has one (Probably CB125 as well, since the CG was based on it). Don't think it adds much bulk. Last month I could have gone and looked at my broken Kymco Zing to check, but its been knicked.

With all the Taiwanese/Chinese clones, thats probably the commonest motorcycle engine on the planet, (maybe after the Cub).

Probably rather few of them have ever been cleaned out, though.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
The police department here has run Crown Vics on bulk dino Castrol 5w20 and 5k OCI's for years. They run a good service life and oil related problems are basically non-existent (read mechanical failure).

They do however typically start to exhibit notable consumption around 125k or so. Those that make it to around 200 are usually smoking badly and gulping oil, while making considerably less power.

Would this be different if they ran 10w30 the whole time?



Well, I think the Charger also call for 5w20 but I do not have experience with them. I have had Vics, Impalas, Explorer PI, and a Taurus.

Well, I am not in the Police Dept. proper but I handle the administration of the vehicle fleet. Comparing them to the Impalas using 5w30... not a whole lot from what I have seen.

Consider use. These vehicles (former Vic, Impalas, Taurus, & Explorers PI) are flogged. I can't keep decent tires or brakes on some. If I make it to 15K on a set of rotors and pads, yippee. The Police Impalas are the worse and they are running 5w30. Some consumption and smoke developed too. Heck many are flogged cold. Mileage for some Departments might be minimal. My vehicles might get 700-1K miles per month depending on the use and even at 70k the Impalas are a problem child. So the issues expend beyond oil (that is my opinion) because I see the "tear" happening not just with the engine but everywhere on those vehicles.
 
The only way one should consider wear is if you tear down the engine and mic every wear part vs their oem spec....most of which will never get done. There is much more to engine life than wear. Piston rings don't just seal from the ring to the wall, they also seal in the ring lands against the piston surface, top and bottom. If you introduce extreme heat to the equation, your engine may have little to no wear, but your ring could have lost tensile strength, and thus you think the cylinder is shot.

All engines will wear over time. A pit in a bearing is not necessarily detrimental, unless its the whole way across a bearing, such as when metal to metal contact happens. Most pits due to material are barely noticeable with the finger nail. Since most vehicles no longer have true oil pressure gauges, I think a lot of people are concerned with something they will never be able to know for themselves.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Pontual


Could you garantee that a one grade up on the thicker side oil wouldn't give a longer life to newer engines?


Can you provide any factual data that thinner oils won't?

We have to properly frame our discussion.

Are we talking about daily driver oils in North America, talking about racing oils, or are we talking about running Land Rovers in the outback of Australia, or old Jeeps in the jungles of Ecuador?

A properly formulated 20 grade will protect most engines in temperate climates just fine.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Pontual


Could you garantee that a one grade up on the thicker side oil wouldn't give a longer life to newer engines?


Can you provide any factual data that thinner oils won't?

We have to properly frame our discussion.

Are we talking about daily driver oils in North America, talking about racing oils, or are we talking about running Land Rovers in the outback of Australia, or old Jeeps in the jungles of Ecuador?

A properly formulated 20 grade will protect most engines in temperate climates just fine.



And as I have seen, will protect in very hot climates as well.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Pontual


Could you garantee that a one grade up on the thicker side oil wouldn't give a longer life to newer engines?


Can you provide any factual data that thinner oils won't?

We have to properly frame our discussion.

Are we talking about daily driver oils in North America, talking about racing oils, or are we talking about running Land Rovers in the outback of Australia, or old Jeeps in the jungles of Ecuador?

A properly formulated 20 grade will protect most engines in temperate climates just fine.



The article at 1st post isn't evidence to you?
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Pontual


Could you garantee that a one grade up on the thicker side oil wouldn't give a longer life to newer engines?


Can you provide any factual data that thinner oils won't?

We have to properly frame our discussion.

Are we talking about daily driver oils in North America, talking about racing oils, or are we talking about running Land Rovers in the outback of Australia, or old Jeeps in the jungles of Ecuador?

A properly formulated 20 grade will protect most engines in temperate climates just fine.



The article at 1st post isn't evidence to you?


Nope only if I am driving in very extreme conditions.
 
the 4.6 ford engine that are in many Police cars and construction trucks are the absolutely best engine around these days. We see heavy use trucks coming in for engine work every once in a while and they always have more than 300,000 miles and a lot of that is idling and heavy construction miles with lots of dust and dirt. The 4.6 is a very durable engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Koz1
0W-20 heavy-duty diesel engine oil.
http://fuelsandlubes.com/flw/petronas-introduces-industrys-first-heavy-duty-diesel-0w-20-engine-oil/

http://www.petronas.com.my/media-relations/media-releases/Pages/article/PETRONAS-INTRODUCES-INDUSTRY%E2%80%99S-FIRST-0W-20-.aspx

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29963/diesel-engine-oil

If its good enough for HDEO why not in cars?



Yep, this article contradicts the thread one. But the thread one has good arguments - quoted by Merkava4 and others. This one for diesels looks like an information folder text, and has no pros and cons.
 
Corollary is also the fact that thinner oils are:

- a waste, since oil consumptions doubles or even triples in most engines, comparing a 0w20 to a 15w40;
- the level goes down much quickier and may lead to catatrophic failures if not closely checked, giving atuarial profit margin to manufacturers and rebuilders and the consumer always pay the bills, since oil starvation is excluded from garanties.
 
And yet I run 0W-20 in my ECHO and 5W-20 in my 1MZ-FE, neither of which have I seen doubled or tripled consumption. And abnormal wear? I think I stopped worrying about that many, many miles ago.
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
the 4.6 ford engine that are in many Police cars and construction trucks are the absolutely best engine around these days. We see heavy use trucks coming in for engine work every once in a while and they always have more than 300,000 miles and a lot of that is idling and heavy construction miles with lots of dust and dirt. The 4.6 is a very durable engine.




I've personally seen 5.4 2v engines with over 500k on the odo. The trucks are so best up and dented you'd think they were garbage yet they pull the stucco guys sand,cement,scaffold,and mixer all the while pulling wheelies down the road.
And the truck starts up at the end of day and drags it all home just to repeat the next morning.
I don't have any experience with anything but the 2v engines of late so I can't comment on the 3v variety however knowing what I know and after seeing what I've seen if I was buying another truck I'd be shopping for a 2v ford.
And I'm a Chev guy,except for mustangs,well and hemi's now.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And yet I run 0W-20 in my ECHO and 5W-20 in my 1MZ-FE, neither of which have I seen doubled or tripled consumption. And abnormal wear? I think I stopped worrying about that many, many miles ago.



He's from Brazil so his experience may be different considering his market and the people there who've never heard of thin lubes and usually drive older more worn vehicles. He may be right considering his market.
He's absolutely wrong though comparing his market to ours. We have different experiences. Probably due to better maintenance practices on our end
 
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