Best UCL

[Oily_hair]

Originally Posted By: kschachn


But thanks for the link and the posts. It's just that that whole thing (at least what I read) is full of myths, subjective observations and completely non-scientific testing. Years ago I worked in the research division of a large, multinational corporation and we had to write papers on our work. They had to be reviewed by our peers, and perhaps that has jaded me somewhat. That collection of posts on the forum wouldn't stand up for a millisecond under any sort of scientific review.


Kind of a late response but....

If you honestly worked for a research division then you would know that the scientific answer you are trying to find will not be from a bunch of posters here that are not engineers nor the ones who created the formula for the UCL's. Maybe the answer (or debate) you are looking for would be best discussed with someone from the manufacturer who can provide the best details of the benefits their product provides to its consumers. After that discussion, you could do your write up and we can review your work and be enlightened with oodles of information that you have provided for your fellow peers on the forum. Other than that you come off as badgering posters when really they don't have to provide you any info. The OP asked a simple question of what is the best UCL they can use and you are now hijacking this thread and made it into a snakeoil debate. It really doesn't make for a good read when someone would like to discuss their experiences with a product. I use UCL's because it gives me the warm and fuzzies everytime I do and because I can. Does it help my car in the long run? Who know's. Am I wasting my money on it? Probably but it runs smooth and I like it and I can see that I am no the only one here.

 

[kschachn]

Okay, sure.

Originally Posted By: Oily_hair
Kind of a late response but....

If you honestly worked for a research division then you would know that the scientific answer you are trying to find will not be from a bunch of posters here that are not engineers nor the ones who created the formula for the UCL's. Maybe the answer (or debate) you are looking for would be best discussed with someone from the manufacturer who can provide the best details of the benefits their product provides to its consumers. After that discussion, you could do your write up and we can review your work and be enlightened with oodles of information that you have provided for your fellow peers on the forum. Other than that you come off as badgering posters when really they don't have to provide you any info. The OP asked a simple question of what is the best UCL they can use and you are now hijacking this thread and made it into a snakeoil debate. It really doesn't make for a good read when someone would like to discuss their experiences with a product. I use UCL's because it gives me the warm and fuzzies everytime I do and because I can. Does it help my car in the long run? Who know's. Am I wasting my money on it? Probably but it runs smooth and I like it and I can see that I am no the only one here.

 

[Bror Jace]

Oily Hair: "The O.P. asked a simple question of what is the best UCL they can use and you are now hijacking this thread and made it into a snakeoil debate."

I don't know. I welcome kschachan's skepticism on the whole subject. I think it adds to the topic in general. After all, why use a UCL at all (the best one or the worst one) if they serve no purpose? I think they do and I simply posted my experiences over the decades of using UCLs in both OPE and automotive gasoline engines.

Having said that, I think kschachan is looking for laboratory or near-laboratory analysis that just isn't available. It's something that we run into again in again when discussing the "best" lubricants (all types) on this forum.

Such testing would be prohibitively expensive and would likely only "prove" one very narrow scenario (one lube, one type of engine under one set of conditions, etc ...).

So, I welcome all input, positive and negative ... as long as it's respectful.

 

[DrAdmin]

Most interesting is:
how, adding TCW3 to gasoline, will affect:
flame speed
and ignition advantage.

 

[147_Grain]

TCW-3 is more of a preventive maintenance item that keeps the combustion chamber and back portion of the intake valves clean for improved longevity and a smoother running engine over a longer period of time. It also helps to form a better seal between the piston rings and the cylinder wall for a slightly more efficient (improved) compression.

 

[dino33]

Could this be the 'best' UCL....

MARINE 2 CYCLE OIL & ENGINE TREATMENT with LXE® Technology

Restores engine power & compression
Minimizes carbon deposits
No ash formula prevents spark plug fouling and port clogging
Unique LXE® Technology restores and rejuvenates all seals and gaskets
Prevents piston and cylinder wall scuffing, as well as ring sticking
Softens and removes internal deposits from usage and storage
Helps engines run cooler by reducing friction and wear
Offers unequaled corrosion protection
Smoothest idling at low RPMs & reduced fuel consumption
Multiple treat rates

Bio based synthetic formulation acts as both a regular 2 cycle oil, and an engine and exhaust system re-conditioner. It rejuvenates engine gaskets and seals while it softens old carbon deposits allowing them to be eliminated through normal operation. It provides the cleanest possible burn, drastically reduces the release of oleo chemicals into the environment, as well as resulting in better idling at lower RPM’s and offers unmatched upper cylinder lubrication.

Expensive stuff! About the same price as Redline 2cycle, but it it could actually rejuvenate seals could it possibly slow down oil loss on an older engine with worn seals???

http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-290/LUBEGARD+Marine+2+cycle+Oil+%26+Engine+Treatment

 

[SOHCman]

I use pennzoil marine full syn oil as a UCL in my cans of OPE fuel, and in my vehicles fuel as an UCL.

After reading this quote on the bottle, it had me wondering if it would possibly attract water due to the ester base oils:

"The combination of synthetic ester base oils and a premium, ashless performance package in Pennzoil Marine Full synthetic 2-cycle oil provides protection for high horsepower applicationas that require approved NMMA TC-W3 oils."

Nothing to worry about? Am I mis-remembering about esters having hydroscopic properties? But it's a marine marketed tcw3, you wouldn't think it would have an issue with water...

 

[Jetronic]

the hydroscopic properties are a non-issue. the esters aren't likely to retain morethan 2000 PPM (0.2%) moisture, but it has been found regular motot oil can hold UP TO 30% moisture by the end of the oci.

a bit of moisture can be beneficial even as esters like iron oxide better than iron to bond with.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In 2-cycle engines, oil is added to the fuel in high concentrations to lubricate the piston rings in "single-pass" lubricated systems.

Quote:
Any lubricant mixed with fuel (in sane amounts) In 4-Cycle Internal combustion Engines fuel tanks is so diluted that it has no affect on Upper Cylinder lubrication.




Quote:
Upper cylinder lubrication is provided by an oil film between the compression ring and the cylinder wall.

Upper cylinder lubrication is accomplished by either splash lubrication or by oil squirters (oil jets) shooting oil to the underside of the piston.

 

[GenaFishbeck]

Originally Posted By: SOHCman
I use pennzoil marine full syn oil as a UCL in my cans of OPE fuel, and in my vehicles fuel as an UCL.

After reading this quote on the bottle, it had me wondering if it would possibly attract water due to the ester base oils:

"The combination of synthetic ester base oils and a premium, ashless performance package in Pennzoil Marine Full synthetic 2-cycle oil provides protection for high horsepower applicationas that require approved NMMA TC-W3 oils."

Nothing to worry about? Am I mis-remembering about esters having hydroscopic properties? But it's a marine marketed tcw3, you wouldn't think it would have an issue with water...


The Pennzoil Marine 100% Synthetic Outboard 2-Cycle Oil base oil is specifically formulated for Marine/2-cycle applications. In fact, it’s certified by the National Marine Manufacturer’s Association (NMMA) as an approved TC-W3 lubricant and specifically designed for exceptional performance in marine applications. In addition, the Pennzoil Marine 100% Synthetic Outboard 2-Cycle Oil is recommended for, and meets the warranty requirements of outboard engines produced by the following manufacturers: Evinrude, Johnson, Mercury, Mariner, U.S. Marine/Force, Sears, Suzuki and Yamaha.

That being said, there shouldn't be a concern with “which ester and/or how this particular ester base oil was built/formulated”. Rest assured the Pennzoil Marine Synthetic Outboard 2-Cycle Oil was formulated for marine 2-cycle applications, and touts all of the credentials to support that claim. Hope this helps! - The Pennzoil Team

 

[John_Conrad]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In 2-cycle engines, oil is added to the fuel in high concentrations to lubricate the piston rings in "single-pass" lubricated systems.

Quote:
Any lubricant mixed with fuel (in sane amounts) In 4-Cycle Internal combustion Engines fuel tanks is so diluted that it has no affect on Upper Cylinder lubrication.




Quote:
Upper cylinder lubrication is provided by an oil film between the compression ring and the cylinder wall.

Upper cylinder lubrication is accomplished by either splash lubrication or by oil squirters (oil jets) shooting oil to the underside of the piston.


thanks, i see your point, i had to think about the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke for a while...

lets start with the 2 stroke and the piston at the top with combustion occurring, once combustion occurs, the oil is freed up to lubricate the piston on both it's downward and upward motion through the wall during the single revolution of the crank as it has no oil sump.

with the 4 stroke and a wet sump system and the piston at the top:
the crank begins it revolution bringing the piston down for the intake(no combustion,no lube from fuel mix-lube only from the splash
during the piston's upward motion, compression occurs readying for combustion and the piston motion once again lubricated by splash
at top the combustion occurs(where if you mix 2 cycle oil with fuel what is not burned will lube) but once again on it's downward motion splash lube is occurring.
the piston returns to bottom, when gases are exhausted..

the cycle begins all over again. so during the 4 motions of the piston travel up and down, it is entirely lubricated by splash and at such a minimal gas oil mix, the one time(out of the 4 motions) that the oil is available after the combustion, is not likely to do much..

 

[Jetronic]

remember that the top compression ring is always in boundary lubrication conditions.

In a port injected engine the air + fuel mix is waiting by the intake valve until it opens and gets into the combustion chamber at the very end of the exhaust stroke already.

The cilinder walls are much cooler than the rest of the combustion chamber, any fuel reaching the walls is likely to stay there. (remember how fuel dilution occurs).

I'd rather have a bit of oil on the cilinder walls (a minimal amount) inside the combustion chamber than pure gas or diesel.

the point of the oil squirters at the bottom of the piston is for coolingas much as for lubrication. Only high performance engines get squirters (or high power density engines really), but low power enginesdon't seem to haveashorter engine life....

I add a bit of oil to keep my injection system lubricated (diesel common rail) and clean. It seems there's a very positive effect on the intake aswell, no suit buildup whatsoever, even with working EGR. the intake is very oily though. The turbo stays quiet aswell, no whistling from the VNT system or the bearings. And to top all that I get about double the distance between DPF regen cycles (together with the current motor oil) than typical for my type of usage.

 

[y_p_w]

Is it really an issue with ring scuffing? I was under the impression that a layer of antiwear is additives left as a sacrificial layer every time the piston travels. I kind of chuckle at how Castrol is touting "Magnatec" as providing extra protection at startup.

 

[Jetronic]

anti wear additives act after wear occurs, and only if conditions are right (like high enough oil temperature). The AW layer will be qyuickly stripped after a cold start.

Yes, the top ring is protected from scuffing by AW additives, but both wear and friction are higher in that lubrication regime. Why settle for a 0.4 friction coefficient, if you could go as low as 0.05 for the top compression ring?

Magnatec uses (probably) some ester which desorbs from the Iron surface around 80°c when the AW additives are becoming active. the little testing I've seen indicate that esters can reduce wear by a factor of 7 compared to non-additize oil (or cold oil), AW chemistry by a factor 10. But AW chemistry can be useless when combined with esters.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
anti wear additives act after wear occurs, and only if conditions are right (like high enough oil temperature). The AW layer will be qyuickly stripped after a cold start.

Yes, the top ring is protected from scuffing by AW additives, but both wear and friction are higher in that lubrication regime. Why settle for a 0.4 friction coefficient, if you could go as low as 0.05 for the top compression ring?

Magnatec uses (probably) some ester which desorbs from the Iron surface around 80°c when the AW additives are becoming active. the little testing I've seen indicate that esters can reduce wear by a factor of 7 compared to non-additize oil (or cold oil), AW chemistry by a factor 10. But AW chemistry can be useless when combined with esters.

Castrol USA was touting that esters clinged to metal surfaces 20 years ago. I recall a flyer at auto parts stores showing how they supposedly aligned on the surface. They weren't using the Magnatec trademark; I think it was Cadtrol Syntec with FSX. However, there were other motor oils formulated with polar esters, yet it wasn't important enough to market. My understanding was that Mobil was the largest maker of ester lubestock in the U.S.

I also recall discussions with a major oil company's testing lab director. He said that yeah polar esters would cling to metal surfaces, but it was a balancing act since this would also compete with additives for "real estate".

 

[SOHCman]

Originally Posted By: John_Conrad
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In 2-cycle engines, oil is added to the fuel in high concentrations to lubricate the piston rings in "single-pass" lubricated systems.

Quote:
Any lubricant mixed with fuel (in sane amounts) In 4-Cycle Internal combustion Engines fuel tanks is so diluted that it has no affect on Upper Cylinder lubrication.




Quote:
Upper cylinder lubrication is provided by an oil film between the compression ring and the cylinder wall.

Upper cylinder lubrication is accomplished by either splash lubrication or by oil squirters (oil jets) shooting oil to the underside of the piston.


thanks, i see your point, i had to think about the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke for a while...

lets start with the 2 stroke and the piston at the top with combustion occurring, once combustion occurs, the oil is freed up to lubricate the piston on both it's downward and upward motion through the wall during the single revolution of the crank as it has no oil sump.

with the 4 stroke and a wet sump system and the piston at the top:
the crank begins it revolution bringing the piston down for the intake(no combustion,no lube from fuel mix-lube only from the splash
during the piston's upward motion, compression occurs readying for combustion and the piston motion once again lubricated by splash
at top the combustion occurs(where if you mix 2 cycle oil with fuel what is not burned will lube) but once again on it's downward motion splash lube is occurring.
the piston returns to bottom, when gases are exhausted..

the cycle begins all over again. so during the 4 motions of the piston travel up and down, it is entirely lubricated by splash and at such a minimal gas oil mix, the one time(out of the 4 motions) that the oil is available after the combustion, is not likely to do much..


You seem to be describing a direct injection 4 stroke perhaps? It would seem than in both a carb'd and a normal fuel injection 4-stroke, any lubricating properties delivered by the fuel/oil mix would be available at least during the compression stroke. The mix would be throughout the cylinder and on its walls as the piston compressed the mix unless I am mistaken...

I don't think the intention was for a premix UCL to replace the boundary film lubrication, just to augment it.

 

[SOHCman]

This made me wonder at what mix tcw3 would start to aid in lubrication... 500:1? It may help to use a 100:1 oil like amsoil saber perhaps