Crane Cams Super Lube

[Qwiky]

Yes.

Interesting article here that seems to confirm the original zinc levels of the VOA in this thread.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275835

Around 5000ppm as tested.

 

[Scott_Tucker]

Originally Posted By: Craig750


Why are Mobile putting too much ZDDP in their motorcycle oils. Their MX4T and V-Twin have about 1800ppm Zn? Quite a few other motorcycle oils have over 1500ppm. Maybe the engineers that designed the additive package haven't read that article you have.



I had Roy Howell, head of product development at Red Line speak in a class I teach last week and he stated the reason is because the transmission and engine share the oil. However, there may be more reasons than that. I was busy managing 35 students so I didn't get to take as many notes as I would have liked. He also confirmed that too much ZDDP can lead to excessive wear.

 

[Qwiky]

Yes, about the excessive wear thing.

If that is the case why does Maxima motorcylce oil with over 4000ppm of Zinc turn in some real low wear numbers.

The articles referred to before stated levels above 1500ppm the wear starts to increase.

 

[Qwiky]

Found an answer to my own question at http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

To quote the relevant section:

" Is there any potential problems with boosting the Zn and P in my API SM or CJ-4 oil or such a thing as too much ZDDP?

Beware of ZDDP boosters and concentrates being sold under various names. These products should truly only be used at time of break-in or not at all if a fully-formulated break-in oil is used. I haven't tested every one of these products, but one thing is very obvious to me. Every product previously sold to boost ZDDP, be it STP or EOS, always had roughly an equal amount of detergents to offset the affect of ZDDP in reducing the TBN of motor oil. Most of these ZDDP concentrates omit detergents altogether or use over-based Ca detergents known to reduce the efficiency of the anti-wear properties of the oil! Just like you need more Zn and P in an oil that has more detergents, you also have to have additional detergency because of the breakdown of ZDDP in peroxides and its interaction with combustion byproducts to form sulfuric acid. Knowing the right balance is something best left to the oil manufacturers and their chemical engineers. More acid, will increase the oils TAN, and will lead to corrosive wear of bearings. For once, I will have to say that more is not better, especially in this case. EOS and STP are decades old, and proven products that work synergistically with your existing motor oil and were never designed to boost the Zn and P more than 100-200ppm - unlike some recommendations to run double the ZDDP, in excess of 2000 ppm, which can lead to increased wear! It is not only the level of Zn and P that is important, but also starting with an oil that meets the ACEA A3/B3 standard would assure a starting TBN of 10 or higher and with similarly higher HTHS viscosities will also give you greater protection too. If you do choose to use these products, you must do used oil analysis to determine drain intervals and monitor overall TBN retention and ensure that the TAN increase does not lead to increased bearing wear! Too much ZDDP can also foul spark plugs and oxygen sensors, not to mention plug EGR valves and the catalytic converter. Additionally, lack of testing of these ZDDP boosters compared to fully formulated oils intended for racing or for older engines or even against SM-rated oils side by side do not instill confidence in their performance, or at least at the time this was written."

 

[esoxlucios]

I need to revive an old thread, If I may: I have a heavily modified 1.8t with Autotech cams that have been both cryo-treated and WPC-treated, with flat tappets and Ferrea valves & springs (stiffer than stock). After reading this and related threads, I e-mailed Crane Cams, as follows:

Quote:
I have a new performance-rebuild on my 1.8t VAG engine (331awhp) and am running the Amsoil European Formula 5W-30 for use in Minnesota. The Blackstone UOA shows 575 ppm [each] of both Zinc and Phosphorous. I have read that too much of either (in excess of 1,400 - 2,000 ppm) can actually cause wear. Analysis of your additive reveals Phos at 693,500 and Zinc at 148,600. Another Blackstone analysis came back with Phos at 130,780 and 127,480. My question is, to avoid pitting, how many ounces of your additive should I put in to get the ZDDP levels to 1200-1400?


These Zinc and Phosphorus numbers came from this and one other thread.

The reply I received follows:

Quote:
Good afternoon,
One 8 oz. bottle of 99003-1 additive will increase the ZDDP content of five quarts of motor coil approximately 400 ppm. This equates to 1.6 oz. of additive raising ZDDP concentration of one quart by the same amount.

Thanks,

Mike Covello
Customer Sales and Technical Support


As you can see, this reply can't be reconciled with the conscious ions from this and other threads. I am very afraid to dump in the whole bottle and damage my new engine with pitting if the fellow that wrote me back is simply mistaken. Anyone here have any insights?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: esoxlucios
I need to revive an old thread, If I may: I have a heavily modified 1.8t with Autotech cams that have been both cryo-treated and WPC-treated, with flat tappets and Ferrea valves & springs (stiffer than stock). After reading this and related threads, I e-mailed Crane Cams, as follows:

Quote:
I have a new performance-rebuild on my 1.8t VAG engine (331awhp) and am running the Amsoil European Formula 5W-30 for use in Minnesota. The Blackstone UOA shows 575 ppm [each] of both Zinc and Phosphorous. I have read that too much of either (in excess of 1,400 - 2,000 ppm) can actually cause wear. Analysis of your additive reveals Phos at 693,500 and Zinc at 148,600. Another Blackstone analysis came back with Phos at 130,780 and 127,480. My question is, to avoid pitting, how many ounces of your additive should I put in to get the ZDDP levels to 1200-1400?


These Zinc and Phosphorus numbers came from this and one other thread.

The reply I received follows:

Quote:
Good afternoon,
One 8 oz. bottle of 99003-1 additive will increase the ZDDP content of five quarts of motor coil approximately 400 ppm. This equates to 1.6 oz. of additive raising ZDDP concentration of one quart by the same amount.

Thanks,

Mike Covello
Customer Sales and Technical Support


As you can see, this reply can't be reconciled with the conscious ions from this and other threads. I am very afraid to dump in the whole bottle and damage my new engine with pitting if the fellow that wrote me back is simply mistaken. Anyone here have any insights?

This VOA is 5 years old.
I suspect the ZDDP level has been unfortunately substantially reduced in the current supplement.

By comparison, the Red Line Break-In Additive contains 19,040 ppm of phos'. Therefore 1 oz will increase the phos' level of 1 quart of oil by 543 ppm.

What the Crane rep' says sound correct but you could always email him back and ask for clarification; i.e., how many ppm of phos' does you current additive contain? You could also mention a VOA from 2008 contains revealed approx' 130,000 ppm of phos'.

 

[901Memphis]

Someone should send the new formula into a different analysis lab for comparison.

 

[901Memphis]

Someone with deep pockets should dump a whole bottle in a 5 quart jug of something, mix it up and Voa it.

 

[Taylor]

PHOSPHORUS - 130780
ZINC - 127480
SODIUM - 400
MOLYBDENUM - 100
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F - 87.5
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C - 17.38
Flashpoint in °F - 405

 

[userfriendly]

This thread discusses the problems that too much ZDDP
can cause in an engine, and the folly of adding
supplements to your engine oil without a clear plan.

It appears that everyone agrees that 1,500 ppm
is about the safe ZDDP limit.
Typically phosphorous is about 90% of ZDDP in
engine oils.

 

[MolaKule]

This Crane Cams and the Redline Break-in additives are ONLY to be used during the ASSEMBLY of engine components.

One needs Anti-Wear protection on those components during startup and before the oil pressure is built up for cooling and further lubrication.

They are NOT to be used as an oil additive for the home "wannabe" chemist.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^Corrosive/caustic/abrasive levels of ZDDP??

 

[MolaKule]

High levels of ZDDP cause micropitting and corrosion.


More is not better.

More of one component without consideration to the balance of the total formulation is myopic.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
This thread discusses the problems that too much ZDDP
can cause in an engine, and the folly of adding
supplements to your engine oil without a clear plan.

It appears that everyone agrees that 1,500 ppm
is about the safe ZDDP limit.
Typically phosphorous is about 90% of ZDDP in
engine oils.


Your statements are 3/4 right and I thank you for them, 1/4 wrong.
Phosphorus is usually ~90% zinc in engine oils (by weight), NOT ZDDP. Zinc composes only about 10-11% of the molecular weight of ZDDP. Zinc is an element, ZDDP is a family of chemical compounds.

Charlie

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
More of one component without consideration to the balance of the total formulation is myopic.

This should be a mandatory signature for everyone on this board, except myopic is too polite a word.