Overbased Calcium Sulfonate

[stevensimiga]

Hi

I am wondering if anyone can settle an argument, I was talking to a friend and he recons that if you kept your engine oil clean enough you could counter the effects of TBN depletion and rising TAN levels by adding an over based calcium sulfonate solution with a TBN of 300, and thus be able to use your engine oil for much longer

Is this even possible?

 

[Olas]

BG MOA already does this, a big shot of calcium to boost TBN. Does t necessarily counter the effects of shear, fuel dilution etc but certainly increases alkalinity.
So it might work, depending on what your UOA tells you

 

[buster]

Molekule can answer this but there is some truth to that I think. You have to watch though that you don't impact the anti wear additives by adding Ca. Has to be a balanced approach which is why formulators exist.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: buster
...You have to watch though that you don't impact the anti wear additives by adding Ca. Has to be a balanced approach which is why formulators exist.


Buster is correct.

You cannot just concentrate on one additive component or effect.

While you may temporarily reduce TAN, you allow sludge precursors and other undesireables to accumulate and concentrate.

While you're rounding up the snakes, the chickens are getting away.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: buster
...You have to watch though that you don't impact the anti wear additives by adding Ca. Has to be a balanced approach which is why formulators exist.


Buster is correct.

You cannot just concentrate on one additive component or effect.

While you may temporarily reduce TAN, you allow sludge precursors and other undesireables to accumulate and concentrate.

While you're rounding up the snakes, the chickens are getting away.


Ok, but why sludge, Since Ca is a detergent? You mean, for the depletion/lack of dispersants?

 

[4wheeldog]

When any one property of an oil wears out....What is to be gained, by trying to stretch its life by fixing that one aspect with an additive, rather than......Just changing the oil?

Some other property is bound to be close to the limit, anyway. You don't go to [censored], just for changing your oil at a reasonable interval.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
When any one property of an oil wears out....What is to be gained, by trying to stretch its life by fixing that one aspect with an additive, rather than......Just changing the oil?

Some other property is bound to be close to the limit, anyway. You don't go to [censored], just for changing your oil at a reasonable interval.


I was thinking about doing the same thing the OP stevensimiga was thinking, using "Oil Extreme Concentrate" to raise TBN, at say halfway thru a regular oil change interval. Or to extend the oil change interval some.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3676232/1

The issue is how we can save money and time by keeping the oil from being too acidic near the end of a long-ish oil change interval, just to be sure acids aren't becoming a problem.

 

[fredfactory]

This patent from Lubrizol http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US6843916
basically makes one think of a solution: Get a Fram High Mileage Oil Filter and change it at half-way through a 10,000 mile or 1-year oil change interval. (No new oil filter at the beginning of the oil change interval, only this one half-way thru each OCI.) The gel-pack additives will help the half-used oil by reducing acids, and other additives to boost it too.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
This patent from Lubrizol http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US6843916
basically makes one think of a solution: Get a Fram High Mileage Oil Filter and change it at half-way through a 10,000 mile or 1-year oil change interval. (No new oil filter at the beginning of the oil change interval, only this one half-way thru each OCI.) The gel-pack additives will help the half-used oil by reducing acids, and other additives to boost it too.


But unless you do an extensive, expensive analysis, you will not know what other additives need boosting.

I am familiar with that patent and I don't think that idea got very far, nor do I see this as a viable solution to periodic oil changes.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I am familiar with that patent and I don't think that idea got very far, nor do I see this as a viable solution to periodic oil changes.


Well, while your pondering its potential and doubting it, its already been saving money for its users:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=471ul06iyrk
http://www.framheavyduty.com/products/oil-filter/fram-wearguard-trt-oil-filter-silver-tph

 

[MolaKule]

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

Periodic oil changes are still the best solution.

Cconsider this: how does the oil filter know how much "gel" to release? Is the oil filter doing a constant UOA for elemental and TBN/TAN analysis?

Hey, we got ourselves a Smart Filter running an internal Artificial Intelligence (AI) algoritthm.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

Periodic oil changes are still the best solution.

Cconsider this: how does the oil filter know how much "gel" to release? Is the oil filter doing a constant UOA for elemental and TBN/TAN analysis?

Hey, we got ourselves a Smart Filter running an internal Artificial Intelligence (AI) algoritthm.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.


Of course periodic oil changes are still done. Its just been already proven that a linear (with time) release of additives replaces predictably failing old additives. Doesn't have to be "Smart". Did you even watch the youtube about extending oil change intervals? Likely not. The proof is there.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

Periodic oil changes are still the best solution.

Cconsider this: how does the oil filter know how much "gel" to release? Is the oil filter doing a constant UOA for elemental and TBN/TAN analysis?

Hey, we got ourselves a Smart Filter running an internal Artificial Intelligence (AI) algoritthm.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.


Of course periodic oil changes are still done. Its just been already proven that a linear (with time) release of additives replaces predictably failing old additives. Doesn't have to be "Smart". Did you even watch the youtube about extending oil change intervals? Likely not. The proof is there.


What proof?

I don't deal in marketing hype or UTUBE said so.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

 

[fredfactory]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.

Periodic oil changes are still the best solution.

Cconsider this: how does the oil filter know how much "gel" to release? Is the oil filter doing a constant UOA for elemental and TBN/TAN analysis?

Hey, we got ourselves a Smart Filter running an internal Artificial Intelligence (AI) algoritthm.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.


Of course periodic oil changes are still done. Its just been already proven that a linear (with time) release of additives replaces predictably failing old additives. Doesn't have to be "Smart". Did you even watch the youtube about extending oil change intervals? Likely not. The proof is there.


What proof?

I don't deal in marketing hype or UTUBE said so.

It does makes for glitzy, gimmicy, marketing hype.


Field tests were done by Fram/Luber-Finer. Also, it is generally accepted that additives break down chemically over time, and may need replacing in the later half of a long oil change interval. Tribology common sense. Are you saying oil additives, as in acid reducers, don't wear out gradually?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
...Field tests were done by Fram/Luber-Finer.


Tribology common sense dictates that an impartial party, I.E., someone other than the manufacturer, run tests and report out the results.

Please show an impartial SWRI report or an SAE paper and I will consider the evidence.

Quote:
Are you saying oil additives, as in acid reducers, don't wear out gradually?


I never stated that and how one would come to that conclusion is without any basis in fact.

Quote:
Also, it is generally accepted that additives break down chemically over time, and may need replacing in the later half of a long oil change interval.


And why would not a regular "non-gel" filter change, with a top-off, not accomplish the same thing without buying into an over-hyped, expensive filter?

The burden of proof of this filter's efficacy is on the Fram Filter salesmen.

 

[MolaKule]

Regarding the Lubrizol Patent or any patent:

A patent is simply a disclosure or a declaration of an idea or invention of something that can be shown to be distinct, divergent, fresh, or dissimilar from prior technology, and of course, to protect that idea.

A patent in and of itself DOES NOT guarantee it usefulnes or efficacy.