Is the degradation gradual and linear? For example, a tire with rated 50K miles, would its performance be similar at 0K miles vs at 25K miles? For example, dry braking distance; would that remain similar at 2yr/25K time as it was at 0yr/0K miles?
Tire performance and their life
- Thread starter Vikas
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Usually a tire will slightly gain performance to a certain point then it will slowly go downhill.
But, Every tire is different. For instance, the Pilot Sport Cup2 is best when brand new(maybe a couple hundred miles) but then performance drops pretty drastically. Then there are touring tires with 80k warranties which won'y hit their prime for probably 20k miles(or better yet after the first 20% is wore off).
Overall I guess it could be generalized that at 50% wear it should perform better than a BRAND NEW tire(there is always break-in on tires).
I think the tires that aren't as good at 50% wear are the lesser quality tires. I don't know this for a fact but it is just an idea.
But, Every tire is different. For instance, the Pilot Sport Cup2 is best when brand new(maybe a couple hundred miles) but then performance drops pretty drastically. Then there are touring tires with 80k warranties which won'y hit their prime for probably 20k miles(or better yet after the first 20% is wore off).
Overall I guess it could be generalized that at 50% wear it should perform better than a BRAND NEW tire(there is always break-in on tires).
I think the tires that aren't as good at 50% wear are the lesser quality tires. I don't know this for a fact but it is just an idea.
I thought I saw TR do some testing on various performance categories (dry, wet, etc.) of new tires vs. 50% worn, but I can't seem to be able to locate it now...
Maybe it was this one... but I could have sworn it was something more comprehensive than this...
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=85
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?&ttid=91
Maybe it was this one... but I could have sworn it was something more comprehensive than this...
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=85
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?&ttid=91
I personally have found that a higher priced tire like Michelin, maintains good performance much longer than inexpensive tires. The inexpensive tire has shallower sipes and off center tread patterns that lead to poorer performance at 50% tread life
As others have said, the loss of sipes as tires lose tread causes some of the loss of performance- traction in some conditions, in this case.
Cooper says the new CS5 series specifically has sipes designed to last longer into the treadlife. That's one of the reasons I chose them. We will see how they hold up over time.
Quote:
MORE SIPING AT HALF-WORN
The CS5 Grand Touring has 40% more sipe length remaining
at half-worn than the previous generation tire (CS4).
Therefore, at half-worn the CS5 will have more siping left
aiding in performance and improving it’s worn appearance
Here's a pic I stole from somewhere. It goes 100% tread, 75%, 50%, 25% and the left side shows the tire at the wear bars.
Here are some pics of the also-popular General RT43 as it ages:
11/32nds
8/32nds
7/32nds
Here are pics of the Firestone FR710 that I recently replaced with the Coopers. These lost tons of sipes
Cooper says the new CS5 series specifically has sipes designed to last longer into the treadlife. That's one of the reasons I chose them. We will see how they hold up over time.
Quote:
MORE SIPING AT HALF-WORN
The CS5 Grand Touring has 40% more sipe length remaining
at half-worn than the previous generation tire (CS4).
Therefore, at half-worn the CS5 will have more siping left
aiding in performance and improving it’s worn appearance
Here's a pic I stole from somewhere. It goes 100% tread, 75%, 50%, 25% and the left side shows the tire at the wear bars.
Here are some pics of the also-popular General RT43 as it ages:
11/32nds
8/32nds
7/32nds
Here are pics of the Firestone FR710 that I recently replaced with the Coopers. These lost tons of sipes
The OEM coopers tires on my wife's BMW got 42K miles before they needed replacing. One of the tires had almost no tread left. My dad's pickup has about 40K miles on his cheap walmart goodyear tires (I think they are integritys). The walmart goodyears are 1/2 the price of the OEM coopers. My wife doesn't drive crazy and neither does my dad.
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Yeah, more tread depth = too much squirm, which results in wasted energy and worse fuel economy.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Is the degradation gradual and linear? For example, a tire with rated 50K miles, would its performance be similar at 0K miles vs at 25K miles? For example, dry braking distance; would that remain similar at 2yr/25K time as it was at 0yr/0K miles?
I find in the dry, pretty much every tire that I've had of reasonable age, gets better and better traction and more feel.
My favorite tires I had on my Neon were some sumitomo HTR200's that I took from 7-8/32 down to 4/32. They worked good for autocross, and a bit of lapping, and still had reasonable wet grip. I think they aquaplaned a bit easier, but on 55mph roads I never had an issue even with their 205 width.
Most other tires I've had, loose a lot of wet grip as they wear.
For dry autocross though, nothing feels worse than a set of all seasons at full tread depth. The corners get destroyed and the surface overheats quickly... 3/4 worn all seasons would be better, and half worn summer tires are better still.
Is the degradation gradual and linear? For example, a tire with rated 50K miles, would its performance be similar at 0K miles vs at 25K miles? For example, dry braking distance; would that remain similar at 2yr/25K time as it was at 0yr/0K miles?
I find in the dry, pretty much every tire that I've had of reasonable age, gets better and better traction and more feel.
My favorite tires I had on my Neon were some sumitomo HTR200's that I took from 7-8/32 down to 4/32. They worked good for autocross, and a bit of lapping, and still had reasonable wet grip. I think they aquaplaned a bit easier, but on 55mph roads I never had an issue even with their 205 width.
Most other tires I've had, loose a lot of wet grip as they wear.
For dry autocross though, nothing feels worse than a set of all seasons at full tread depth. The corners get destroyed and the surface overheats quickly... 3/4 worn all seasons would be better, and half worn summer tires are better still.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
I personally have found that a higher priced tire like Michelin, maintains good performance much longer than inexpensive tires. The inexpensive tire has shallower sipes and off center tread patterns that lead to poorer performance at 50% tread life
I've had Michelin all-season tires that had fairly shallow sipes. The sipes were there long enough to be there when there was adequate "winter depth", but then went away. Once the sipes were gone, the dry handling and response improved. It's not as "squirmy" once the sipes are gone.
However, those are more performance tires.
I personally have found that a higher priced tire like Michelin, maintains good performance much longer than inexpensive tires. The inexpensive tire has shallower sipes and off center tread patterns that lead to poorer performance at 50% tread life
I've had Michelin all-season tires that had fairly shallow sipes. The sipes were there long enough to be there when there was adequate "winter depth", but then went away. Once the sipes were gone, the dry handling and response improved. It's not as "squirmy" once the sipes are gone.
However, those are more performance tires.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yeah, more tread depth = too much squirm, which results in wasted energy and worse fuel economy.
Correct. Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Yeah, more tread depth = too much squirm, which results in wasted energy and worse fuel economy.
Correct. Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Originally Posted By: barkingspider
The OEM coopers tires on my wife's BMW got 42K miles before they needed replacing. One of the tires had almost no tread left. My dad's pickup has about 40K miles on his cheap walmart goodyear tires (I think they are integritys). The walmart goodyears are 1/2 the price of the OEM coopers. My wife doesn't drive crazy and neither does my dad.
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
As far as I know, they only recently (in early 2013) became an OEM supplier at all when they started supplying Ford with tires for some Focus models.
http://coopertire.com/News/Corporate-New...nal-Equipm.aspx
Quote:
This new relationship with Ford marks our company’s entry into the U.S. passenger car OE tire market
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Continental or another tire as the OEM tire for BMW?
The OEM coopers tires on my wife's BMW got 42K miles before they needed replacing. One of the tires had almost no tread left. My dad's pickup has about 40K miles on his cheap walmart goodyear tires (I think they are integritys). The walmart goodyears are 1/2 the price of the OEM coopers. My wife doesn't drive crazy and neither does my dad.
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
As far as I know, they only recently (in early 2013) became an OEM supplier at all when they started supplying Ford with tires for some Focus models.
http://coopertire.com/News/Corporate-New...nal-Equipm.aspx
Quote:
This new relationship with Ford marks our company’s entry into the U.S. passenger car OE tire market
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Continental or another tire as the OEM tire for BMW?
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
Me neither.
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
Me neither.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
Me neither.
I'll third that.
I was even surprised one time when I saw a brand new Focus with Coopers on it. I had to google that.
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I've never seen any information saying Cooper has been an OEM tire supplier to BMW.
Me neither.
I'll third that.
I was even surprised one time when I saw a brand new Focus with Coopers on it. I had to google that.
You need to better define "tire performance..."
Brand new full tread depth tires work best in the wet, at higher speeds...and get progressively worse as the tread gets shallower.
Racers will actually shave down a brand new tire to minimize tread block flex, heat build up and at extremes, chunking...
And slicks work best in the dry... but don't work at all in the wet...!
Throw in heat cycling and rubber hardening as it ages, and usually a street tire will at some point start to lose grip, even in dry conditions.
Brand new full tread depth tires work best in the wet, at higher speeds...and get progressively worse as the tread gets shallower.
Racers will actually shave down a brand new tire to minimize tread block flex, heat build up and at extremes, chunking...
And slicks work best in the dry... but don't work at all in the wet...!
Throw in heat cycling and rubber hardening as it ages, and usually a street tire will at some point start to lose grip, even in dry conditions.
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Which STREET, NON-R compound tires are these??
I know there are some 100 tread wear, 'semi-R' compound, and under 100 tread wear FULL R compound donuts which are molded at 4/32nds, so that racers/autocrossers do not have to shave them (or at least not shave them extensively), but I have NEVER heard of a over 100 tread wear STREET tire which is molded that shallow.
Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Which STREET, NON-R compound tires are these??
I know there are some 100 tread wear, 'semi-R' compound, and under 100 tread wear FULL R compound donuts which are molded at 4/32nds, so that racers/autocrossers do not have to shave them (or at least not shave them extensively), but I have NEVER heard of a over 100 tread wear STREET tire which is molded that shallow.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I find in the dry, pretty much every tire that I've had of reasonable age, gets better and better traction and more feel.
My favorite tires I had on my Neon were some sumitomo HTR200's that I took from 7-8/32 down to 4/32. They worked good for autocross, and a bit of lapping, and still had reasonable wet grip. I think they aquaplaned a bit easier, but on 55mph roads I never had an issue even with their 205 width.
Most other tires I've had, loose a lot of wet grip as they wear.
For dry autocross though, nothing feels worse than a set of all seasons at full tread depth. The corners get destroyed and the surface overheats quickly... 3/4 worn all seasons would be better, and half worn summer tires are better still.
I agree. Better dry performance/handling when tread wear off and best with less than 2/32" tread remaining.
I find in the dry, pretty much every tire that I've had of reasonable age, gets better and better traction and more feel.
My favorite tires I had on my Neon were some sumitomo HTR200's that I took from 7-8/32 down to 4/32. They worked good for autocross, and a bit of lapping, and still had reasonable wet grip. I think they aquaplaned a bit easier, but on 55mph roads I never had an issue even with their 205 width.
Most other tires I've had, loose a lot of wet grip as they wear.
For dry autocross though, nothing feels worse than a set of all seasons at full tread depth. The corners get destroyed and the surface overheats quickly... 3/4 worn all seasons would be better, and half worn summer tires are better still.
I agree. Better dry performance/handling when tread wear off and best with less than 2/32" tread remaining.
Originally Posted By: geeman789
You need to better define "tire performance..."
Brand new full tread depth tires work best in the wet, at higher speeds...and get progressively worse as the tread gets shallower.
I think it depends on what you mean by "wet". Certainly tread depth affects the ability to clear standing water, but you can have a wet road where there's not much standing water per se, and reduced tread squirm will help with traction.
I do remember one poster here who kept on insisting that water adhering to tire rubber hurt wet traction, even with a lot of evidence that it helped with wet traction due to the hydrostatic properties of water that helps with cutting through a water film and that water adheres to modern pavement materials. However, he said something that seemed absurd - a claim that a slick with his ideal "3 season" compound would be ideal on a wet road without standing water. Even then I think a slick would hydroplane on barely any water.
You need to better define "tire performance..."
Brand new full tread depth tires work best in the wet, at higher speeds...and get progressively worse as the tread gets shallower.
I think it depends on what you mean by "wet". Certainly tread depth affects the ability to clear standing water, but you can have a wet road where there's not much standing water per se, and reduced tread squirm will help with traction.
I do remember one poster here who kept on insisting that water adhering to tire rubber hurt wet traction, even with a lot of evidence that it helped with wet traction due to the hydrostatic properties of water that helps with cutting through a water film and that water adheres to modern pavement materials. However, he said something that seemed absurd - a claim that a slick with his ideal "3 season" compound would be ideal on a wet road without standing water. Even then I think a slick would hydroplane on barely any water.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Which STREET, NON-R compound tires are these??
I know there are some 100 tread wear, 'semi-R' compound, and under 100 tread wear FULL R compound donuts which are molded at 4/32nds, so that racers/autocrossers do not have to shave them (or at least not shave them extensively), but I have NEVER heard of a over 100 tread wear STREET tire which is molded that shallow.
There are a couple. And i saw it was 6/32nds not 5/32nds.
Pirelli - Z/28 tire
Michelin Sport Cup 2
Michelin actually has a few
Continental ContiForceContact
I believe(the website isn't working well on my work computer so I can't see) that the Pirelli is a 60 treadwear rating and the Sport Cup series are 80. Pretty insane ratings.
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Also if you look at high performance tires(extreme high end) they will start with only 5/32nd to minimize/eliminate the tread squirm.
Which STREET, NON-R compound tires are these??
I know there are some 100 tread wear, 'semi-R' compound, and under 100 tread wear FULL R compound donuts which are molded at 4/32nds, so that racers/autocrossers do not have to shave them (or at least not shave them extensively), but I have NEVER heard of a over 100 tread wear STREET tire which is molded that shallow.
There are a couple. And i saw it was 6/32nds not 5/32nds.
Pirelli - Z/28 tire
Michelin Sport Cup 2
Michelin actually has a few
Continental ContiForceContact
I believe(the website isn't working well on my work computer so I can't see) that the Pirelli is a 60 treadwear rating and the Sport Cup series are 80. Pretty insane ratings.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Is the degradation gradual and linear? For example, a tire with rated 50K miles, would its performance be similar at 0K miles vs at 25K miles? For example, dry braking distance; would that remain similar at 2yr/25K time as it was at 0yr/0K miles?
I think you already know that the decline in overall performance is gradual and pretty linear.
You accomodate it as you drive and you never really realize how bad the tires had gotten until you replace them with a fresh set and discover just how quiet and smooth riding the subject car really can be.
In terms of dry braking and cornering grip, less tread equals less voided area and more rubber in contact with the road, so worn tires typically offer better grip in dry conditions, unless the compound has hardened due to age.
In rain or snow, less wear and more tread depth is always better as is a fresher compound less compromised by aging.
Is the degradation gradual and linear? For example, a tire with rated 50K miles, would its performance be similar at 0K miles vs at 25K miles? For example, dry braking distance; would that remain similar at 2yr/25K time as it was at 0yr/0K miles?
I think you already know that the decline in overall performance is gradual and pretty linear.
You accomodate it as you drive and you never really realize how bad the tires had gotten until you replace them with a fresh set and discover just how quiet and smooth riding the subject car really can be.
In terms of dry braking and cornering grip, less tread equals less voided area and more rubber in contact with the road, so worn tires typically offer better grip in dry conditions, unless the compound has hardened due to age.
In rain or snow, less wear and more tread depth is always better as is a fresher compound less compromised by aging.
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