2012 Ford F550 / Bad Report / 15w40 Mag1 Fleet

[ToadU]

Hello,

I am looking for comments, opinions and advice. Thanks in advance.

Many of you probably know I own a wrecker company and we are insane hard on our wreckers. The type of towing my company does is private property impound so my trucks run virtually 24/7 and impound from 3-5 cars per hour. In a 10hr shift one wrecker can drive 180 miles in town. My wrecker never see the highway...always in town and our average tow is 4-5 miles. We average 75-80k per year and I keep a truck until about 250k. They also spend a great deal of time idling. Basically, we are as hard on equipment as is possible.

The only trucks and engines I have found that can take the abuse day in and day out 24/7 and 365 are Ford 450s and 550s with either the PSD or the V10. (I'm currently getting rid of all of my diesels and going gas. They get better mileage, are cheaper and easier to repair and last as long and tow just as well) (I have a couple of Dodges that I'm selling left....but that's another topic)

I have my own mechanics and service department and we do all maintence in house. I use Blackstone to randomly sample trucks. It's too expensive to sample all of the time. My main focus has always been getting ever last mile out of the oil so I primarily look at TBN and soot. I have had every brand of wrecker and engine and never had a bad oil report come back ever.

My OCIs are 10k with filter. I buy filters wholesale and use Motorcraft, Fram HD (black ones for trucks) and Wix XP. 70% of time running Motorcraft and 20% the Frams and 10% wix Xp. It's just a cost and availability equation of which one of the 3 I buy. I use 15w40 Mag1 All Fleet purchased in 55 gallon drums and pumped directly into the trucks.

This report seems bad and I appreciate your opinions.

This truck ironically has been my wrecker and therefore the miles are much lower than other units as I have been the only driver until 2 months ago. I bought myself a new 450 V10. Anyways because I have driven this ironically this truck hasn't been abused like my other trucks as much (I'm still hard on it but not as hard. The last 2 months it's been in the fleet and been driven hard)

2012 F550. No Modifications / 64,274 on truck / 9,634 on this OCI and filter / No make up oil

Results---------------------------------UA
Aluminum 22 13
Chromium 7. 2
Iron. 122. 33
Copper. 8. 4
Lead / tin. 0 0/1
Moly. 38. 28
Nickel. 2. 1
Titanium. 0. 1
Potassium 1. 3
Boron. 8. 30
Silicon. 9. 7
Sodium. 5. 6
Calcium. 1101. 1688
Magnesium 746. 482
Phosphorus. 974. 1020
Zinc. 1168. 1178
Barium. 0. 1
Vis @ 210F. 69.8. 69-79
Vis @. 100c. 12.89. 12.7--15.5
Flash. 390. >415.
Fuel 2.5. Antifreeze / water 0
Insolubles .4. TBN. 2.7

Notes: Blackstone took 2 months to analyze this. No explanation why so long. Had I known this info I would have short changed the oil and reanazlized. Because Blackstone took so long to send me the report the truck was already just shy of its 10k OCI. We changed the oil and I sent another sample this past week.

Thanks for any and all help!!!

All the best...Steve

 

[OVERKILL]

I'd only be concerned if a subsequent report shows it trending upwards.

 

[ToadU]

What does iron at 122 mean when the universal avgs should 33??

 

[dustyroads]

First thing I'll say is it's just as well that you didn't short change it. When you get your next sample results you can make a better comparison and get a better analysis of a problem (if one exists). No harm done here, but you are probably approaching condemnation limits on the aluminum and iron.

All I see is some fuel dilution (2.5%). That's something to watch for sure and I'd guess that's where the extra wear came from, although the viscosity isn't too bad for that much fuel.

Don't worry too much until you get the next results. Again, I think it's good you got another comparable mileage sample. You may just have an injector/cup issue.

There are far more knowledgeable people here than me but that's my brief (hurried) take on it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ToadU
What does iron at 122 mean when the universal avgs should 33??


It may just be a streak or an anomaly. It's only something to be concerned about if it persists or trends upwards. As the other poster noted, this could be caused by the fuel dilution for example.

It is something to keep an eye on.

 

[donnyj08]

Is this a PSD truck or a V10 gas?

 

[4wheeldog]

Given that oil is pumped in directly from a drum, it could easily be that something was introduced with the oil, into the engine. It would have been interesting to see the inside of the oil filter, that went along with that oil. Could have been some filings apparent.

That said, I agree with others, that another analysis would be in order. If the number trend significantly down, no problem. If they stay up, or get worse......It might at least be worth looking under the valve covers, for a bad rocker/cam follower etc.

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah, there are no statistics on this to say a wear metal is truly out of range. That's sort of the reason to have UA, but I wouldn't count on it. If I thought antifreeze, I'd be more jumpy. If go one interval, perhaps sample halfway, and assess.

Interesting that you claim the v10 is easier on fuel than the diesel.

 

[ToadU]

Possible contamination from the oil drum while possible....I have to rely on my service department to do their jobs properly.......is unlikely. On the same day and time this truck's oil was changed (3) other trucks received service from the same drum. The oil log shows the drum was changed in the middle of the last trucks oil change due to be empty. The truck immediately after this one I sent a sample off as well. It is a Cummins and had no anomaly in the results.

Had I know there was a problem I would have opened the filter. However, that filter is in my used filter drums and their is no way to find it. I do know it was a Motorcraft filter but I have (4) drums of used filters and a 600 gal used oil
tank so no way to know which filter belonged to this truck.

The engine has 4,988 total hours of which 2,085 are at idle.

Yes, the gas V10 gets better mpgs for my use than the PSD and Cummins. Equal weights and equally equipped. The cost of ownership per mile is substantially lower on all fronts. The cost of repairs is substantially lower. They are 1,000 times easier to work on and have been more reliable over all. I just sold a v10 450 with 395,000 it was my oldest V10 and I kept it longer as an experiment. It was just starting to get a little lifter tap on start up. No major repairs aside from the usual belts, hoses, batteries (wreckers eat batteries and alternators) and some accessory replacements...I.E. Power steering, alternators ect. The engine was never once opened and only had minimal valve cover seepage. It was on I ts 3rd set of iridium plugs. OCI and filters every 12k with Mag1 full syn 5w30 from a drum.

I don't want to start an argument but I believe in MOST applications the V10 or the Dodge 6.4 Gas engines getter better fuel economy and are better overall trucks. Granted resale value they don't hold up as well. However, after owning several a test for my fleet I can tell you when you factor the initial cost savings...12k on a wrecker....the better fuel economy and the lower maint costs even selling them at a reduced value I am thousands of dollars more ahead at the time I sell them. The reliability is night and day. I can't tell you how often I have diesel units down due to a sensor or coolant leak or the DPF system or DPF filter issue. It's constant. Plus you have to pull the cab to do any major work on the ford diesel. Not so on the gas units. Our diesel Ford fuel economy avg fleet wide is 6.7mpg and for cummins (the last 2 in fleet have had EGR and DPF deletes with Race Me economy tunes) our avg mpg since the deletes is 9.5. Before the deletes they were about the same as the PSDs. My gas V10 avg fleet MPG is 11.6.

Overall for me the gas units are cheaper and better for my purposes. I do believe application makes a difference. However, with modern diesels running I town only stop and go and doing 50% idling the diesels have too many problems and get very poor fuel economy. If my operations were strictly highway maybe it would be different. It's sad but modern on road diesels just can't handle idling anymore and a good part of a wreckers life is idling...winching...working an accident....ect ect. Look at police cars and taxied...they are all gas. The V10 has just been a bullet proof motor that takes whatever you throw at it. As they age they seem to drink about 1qt of oil on avg per every 5k miles. Never hurts performance or reliability.

 

[dustyroads]

In a job like yours, the gas engines make sense to me. Lower purchase price, reliable and still durable make good reasons. If your gassers get comparable fuel mileage or even better, that's a bonus.

A diesel is far better when loading up and going down the road and watching the odometer tick away, but in your business I can't argue against the case you made.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Possible contamination from the oil drum while possible....I have to rely on my service department to do their jobs properly.......is unlikely. On the same day and time this truck's oil was changed (3) other trucks received service from the same drum. The oil log shows the drum was changed in the middle of the last trucks oil change due to be empty. The truck immediately after this one I sent a sample off as well. It is a Cummins and had no anomaly in the results.

Had I know there was a problem I would have opened the filter. However, that filter is in my used filter drums and their is no way to find it. I do know it was a Motorcraft filter but I have (4) drums of used filters and a 600 gal used oil
tank so no way to know which filter belonged to this truck.

The engine has 4,988 total hours of which 2,085 are at idle.

Yes, the gas V10 gets better mpgs for my use than the PSD and Cummins. Equal weights and equally equipped. The cost of ownership per mile is substantially lower on all fronts. The cost of repairs is substantially lower. They are 1,000 times easier to work on and have been more reliable over all. I just sold a v10 450 with 395,000 it was my oldest V10 and I kept it longer as an experiment. It was just starting to get a little lifter tap on start up. No major repairs aside from the usual belts, hoses, batteries (wreckers eat batteries and alternators) and some accessory replacements...I.E. Power steering, alternators ect. The engine was never once opened and only had minimal valve cover seepage. It was on I ts 3rd set of iridium plugs. OCI and filters every 12k with Mag1 full syn 5w30 from a drum.

I don't want to start an argument but I believe in MOST applications the V10 or the Dodge 6.4 Gas engines getter better fuel economy and are better overall trucks. Granted resale value they don't hold up as well. However, after owning several a test for my fleet I can tell you when you factor the initial cost savings...12k on a wrecker....the better fuel economy and the lower maint costs even selling them at a reduced value I am thousands of dollars more ahead at the time I sell them. The reliability is night and day. I can't tell you how often I have diesel units down due to a sensor or coolant leak or the DPF system or DPF filter issue. It's constant. Plus you have to pull the cab to do any major work on the ford diesel. Not so on the gas units. Our diesel Ford fuel economy avg fleet wide is 6.7mpg and for cummins (the last 2 in fleet have had EGR and DPF deletes with Race Me economy tunes) our avg mpg since the deletes is 9.5. Before the deletes they were about the same as the PSDs. My gas V10 avg fleet MPG is 11.6.

Overall for me the gas units are cheaper and better for my purposes. I do believe application makes a difference. However, with modern diesels running I town only stop and go and doing 50% idling the diesels have too many problems and get very poor fuel economy. If my operations were strictly highway maybe it would be different. It's sad but modern on road diesels just can't handle idling anymore and a good part of a wreckers life is idling...winching...working an accident....ect ect. Look at police cars and taxied...they are all gas. The V10 has just been a bullet proof motor that takes whatever you throw at it. As they age they seem to drink about 1qt of oil on avg per every 5k miles. Never hurts performance or reliability.



Now that is very interesting information.

The Ford mod motors are proven bulletproof on all fronts and the v-10 is a great engine. I'd love to see one shoehorned into a mustang.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[GenesisGuy70]

Originally Posted By: ToadU

Notes: Blackstone took 2 months to analyze this.


Um. What? 2 months? My sample got to Blackstone on Saturday morning, if I don't have a report by Wednesday I'll be calling.

 

[ToadU]

Originally Posted By: Throt
Originally Posted By: ToadU

Notes: Blackstone took 2 months to analyze this.


Um. What? 2 months? My sample got to Blackstone on Saturday morning, if I don't have a report by Wednesday I'll be calling.


I am busy and oil samples really don't take precedence. I honestly forgot. I called about 2 weeks in and they told m they never got it and it must have been lost. They also told me it routinely takes the USPS 4 weeks to deliver oil samples.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: ToadU
Originally Posted By: Throt
Originally Posted By: ToadU

Notes: Blackstone took 2 months to analyze this.


Um. What? 2 months? My sample got to Blackstone on Saturday morning, if I don't have a report by Wednesday I'll be calling.


I am busy and oil samples really don't take precedence. I honestly forgot. I called about 2 weeks in and they told m they never got it and it must have been lost. They also told me it routinely takes the USPS 4 weeks to deliver oil samples.


Blackstone is quick. No doubt the USPS screwed up the delivery. In the past I've had several samples that were never delivered. For last couple years I've gone to priority shipping in an envelope for tracking and expediting. However, my last sample still got way off course and didn't show anything in the tracking for days at a time.

 

[m37charlie]

Question:
Why didn't you do a delete/oil cooler replacement on the PSDs? that would have solved the reliability issues and upped the mileage considerably.

Charlie

 

[ToadU]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Question:
Why didn't you do a delete/oil cooler replacement on the PSDs? that would have solved the reliability issues and upped the mileage considerably.

Charlie


Too expensive to do fleet wide, illegal and the return for the cost not worth it. I did modify (2) of my Ram cummins units as an experiment and although they did get somewhat better mileage it wasn't worth the expense. Also it makes the trucks nosier which in my business might get you shot at worst or cause you to loose cars at best.

 

[ToadU]

On 2 Cummins I deleted the EGR and DPF and used a tuner to tune for economy. It was an experiment and at the same time I started buying V10s. The V10s were the winning solution and bulletproof out of the box no assembly required lol

 

[dnewton3]

AS to the UOA posted here, there is cause for caution, but not panic. You're on the right track to sample/analyze again. Wait for the data to determine what's going on. I am unclear; is this UOA a v-10 gasser?


The fuel savings makes sense to me in the situation. Presuming he's running "legal" diesels, they are going to see a lot of regens with high idle hours and never really getting highway-driven long saturation periods. So the fuel is being burned in regens and driving the average fuel economy down. Whereas a gasser does not see such issues in this type use. Certainly you can strip off the garbage to make the diesel run "better" without regens, but there are issues with that as we all know. And, a robust gasser proven engine can last a long time, as seen here. Coupled with low initial costs (probably saves $7k in purchase) and maintenance (simple OCIs and no complicated plumbing), the gasser can make sense.

Perfect example of actual use conditions and parameters usurping traditional hype and rhetoric. Diesels make for great engines, buy only in the right applications. He has found an application that actually suits gassers better.

 

[SilverC6]

Good analysis on your fleet decision.

With advancements in horsepower and torque in gas HD powerplants, it only makes sense.

With your savings on the front end, it's the net cost, not high final resale that matters.

 

[ToadU]

The UOA was on a 2012 PSD in a f550. I did modify two Cummins with a tuner, EGR delete and DPF delete. I did get a gain in economy but the cost wasn't worth the capital outlay, the trucks are MUCH nosier even with muffler intact and they are illegal. I got cold feet because all of my wrecker get inspected by DOT every 6 months because we are on contract to tow for them. Also, the 2 I modified were well out of warranty. I am selling both as we speak.