Paint durability - 25yr old original vs. modern?

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Found an older post here which discussed factory paint vs. repaint durability and finish, and the consensus seemed to be that factory paint is more durable due to the baking, while repaints can achieve a better quality finish.

I have a 25 year old car with factory single stage paint, and am planning on a base/clear repaint. Have improvements in paint chemistry over the years lessened the gap in durability, or is it still going to be significantly softer with the repaint? (assuming the car is prepped and painted by a well respected professional).

thanks for any insight.
 
If anything I think some of the more recent environmentally friendly paints have taken a step backwards. I'm not an expert of any type to advise on the rest though.
 
If anything todays paint are many times more durable than the old factory paints, especially the high solids 2K clears.
Some people mistakenly equate water based base cote with something like latex house paint, it isn't.
The water is just a carrier as is solvent, both evaporate out leaving only the actual paint that remains on the panel.

The durability of any paint job is in the surface prep, prepped properly a repainted bumper can have even better durability than OE. OE isn't always that great, ever see peeling clear coat and peeling bumper covers?

Some 2K clears are so tough its hard to buff them if left too long after repaint. They are much more scratch resistant than paints from 20 years ago.
Like anything else you get what you pay for, high end paint and primer isn't cheap, in fact its very expensive.
 
Are we talking about 25 year old Nissan/Honda paint or 25 year old Porsche/Mercedes paint?

Even the very best refinish will not obtain the adhesion of proper factory electrostaticly applied paint. (Just try glue pulling it). Practically that makes little difference unless you need to paintless dent repair it.

Factory applied paint typically is very thin as well.

I guess it is mostly a moot point since when the factory paint is no longer serviceable it must be refinished. If the factory paint is serviceable I would never refinish it.

A truly quality refinish is quite expensive... though it of course varies by local and condition of the car body.

Oh - and a quality refinish can exceded OE durability and hardness and as noted some clears are so hard they are very difficult to buff. Paint should have some elasticity though so "hard" may be one of those things you think you want, but really don't...
 
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I have a question about paint coats but I don't think it's big enough to start my own thread... If your clear coat is scratched to [censored] but your paint itself is fine, is it possible to somehow put clear coat on again without repainting?
 
Originally Posted By: horse123
I have a question about paint coats but I don't think it's big enough to start my own thread... If your clear coat is scratched to [censored] but your paint itself is fine, is it possible to somehow put clear coat on again without repainting?
short answer yes u can.
 
Originally Posted By: horse123
I have a question about paint coats but I don't think it's big enough to start my own thread... If your clear coat is scratched to [censored] but your paint itself is fine, is it possible to somehow put clear coat on again without repainting?

As long as the base coat isn't damaged or the clear is peeling you can scuff it a re-shoot the clear.
 
Thanks guys.

It's porsche paint (didn't really consider that may make much of a difference). Sections of the paint need refinishing including the stone guard areas of the quarter panels and fenders, the engine bay, front bumper and small areas here and there.

The car is white and I've been told by a couple of shops that we'd need to paint most of the sides to blend those areas to a good color match. The factory quality also wasn't great at the plant this car was painted; there's quite a bit of dirt in the finish.

I know original paint is more desirable, helps with value etc. but I feel like with all the patches that need attention, I'd be happier with fresh paint over the whole thing. It's going to be a thorough job with all glass, mechanicals and interior removed, and a lot of extra effort put into the finish to get it orange-peel free.

It's interesting to read some of the comments about hardness. I guess what I mean by durability is how well it'll hold up over the long term vs. factory paint. Once the car is restored it's going to be a weekend/fair weather driver in a warm climate. Is it realistic to think that a quality repaint will last as long as factory paint under these conditions?

Horse123 - I'm far from an expert on this but for what it's worth - I had some minor paintwork done on another car, the tailgate had a small ding and the hood had been etched by bird droppings. On both panels, the body shop sanded the clear, fixed and spot painted the damaged paint, then re-cleared the entire hood and tailgate. When they were done it looked perfect.
 
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IMHO, the single stage paint of old is better than the basecoat/cleracoat systems used universally for the past couple of decades.
Here's why.
With old single stage paint, you would see oxidation over time, but this was easily remedied with any all in one cleaner wax/polish product and the paint would look great once again.
With a basecoat/clearcoat system, if the clear develops problems and begins to weather off, there's nothing you can do short of a respray, and unless you spend the kind of money that you appear to be prepared to spend, a respray is never very good.
Just my two cents.
I write this having owned cars factory painted with single stage alkyd enamel, acrylic enamel, polyurethane enamel, acrylic lacquer and nitrocellulose laquer.
These old single stage finishes always cleaned up well and looked good and proved to be very durable.
Can't say the same about every car we've had with two stage paint, although most basecoaot/clearcoats paints will look pretty good for a long time with no more than the ocassional wash.
 
Originally Posted By: wolfestone
...Sections of the paint need refinishing including the stone guard areas of the quarter panels and fenders, the engine bay, front bumper and small areas here and there.

The car is white and I've been told by a couple of shops that we'd need to paint most of the sides to blend those areas to a good color match. The factory quality also wasn't great at the plant this car was painted; there's quite a bit of dirt in the finish.


If that much needs painting doing the whole thing is probably the right thing to do, if there is no break from the quarter to the roof either in the sail or roof moulding the burn in will show after a while anyway if they don't go "up and over". Add to the fact that I've seen many shops repair single stage with two stage and you have a recipe for an obvious repair down the road.

Originally Posted By: wolfestone
I know original paint is more desirable, helps with value etc. but I feel like with all the patches that need attention, I'd be happier with fresh paint over the whole thing. It's going to be a thorough job with all glass, mechanicals and interior removed, and a lot of extra effort put into the finish to get it orange-peel free.


You probably already know this, but a production type shop is not the place for this. You need a restoration (And preferably one that specializes in P-cars) shop for this.

Originally Posted By: wolfestone
It's interesting to read some of the comments about hardness. I guess what I mean by durability is how well it'll hold up over the long term vs. factory paint. Once the car is restored it's going to be a weekend/fair weather driver in a warm climate. Is it realistic to think that a quality repaint will last as long as factory paint under these conditions?
...


Yes - that's realistic for the kind of job you are talking about.
 
Originally Posted By: wolfestone
Thanks guys.

It's porsche paint (didn't really consider that may make much of a difference). Sections of the paint need refinishing including the stone guard areas of the quarter panels and fenders, the engine bay, front bumper and small areas here and there.

The car is white and I've been told by a couple of shops that we'd need to paint most of the sides to blend those areas to a good color match. The factory quality also wasn't great at the plant this car was painted; there's quite a bit of dirt in the finish.

I know original paint is more desirable, helps with value etc. but I feel like with all the patches that need attention, I'd be happier with fresh paint over the whole thing. It's going to be a thorough job with all glass, mechanicals and interior removed, and a lot of extra effort put into the finish to get it orange-peel free.

It's interesting to read some of the comments about hardness. I guess what I mean by durability is how well it'll hold up over the long term vs. factory paint. Once the car is restored it's going to be a weekend/fair weather driver in a warm climate. Is it realistic to think that a quality repaint will last as long as factory paint under these conditions?

Horse123 - I'm far from an expert on this but for what it's worth - I had some minor paintwork done on another car, the tailgate had a small ding and the hood had been etched by bird droppings. On both panels, the body shop sanded the clear, fixed and spot painted the damaged paint, then re-cleared the entire hood and tailgate. When they were done it looked perfect.


Some factory paint jobs are indeed desirable and make an excellent base for new paint others are not. A lot of factory finishes base/clear had peeling issues.
Some older GM "Mirror Magic" (just one example) single stage finishes had bad cracking issues when they were just a few years old.

Todays base/clear paints are superior, the one i use is very hard but remains flexible enough to use on bumper covers with no flex additive (it sounds contradictory doesn't it?).
I did a bumper cover 8 years ago that got hit last year, the paint remained intact, no chipping or peeling and the cover took a big hit.

I did one of my own cars 9 years ago, use it only in the summer, it sits outside all summer and the paint looks as good today as it did then. I would say durability is very good.
There are hardly any stone chips even though it sees a lot of highway use, the paint is that durable and resistant to chipping.

I use Dupont Chroma base and Nason (owned by Dupont, its the original Dupont glamor clear). The Nason is cheaper but after shooting the new Glamor clear i still prefer the Nason.
 
80's German paint was very good, I can't comment on other countries. You can get a good paint job, but to make it look good on a P car its going to cost a lot.

The Germans had issues around 2000 when they transitioned over but those are long sorted out.

I remember we had a new at the time 2000 S430 along side a 1995 S600 and a 1987 300SDL and the paint on the S430 just sucked.
 
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Most of the cost is in labor to do the prep. If someone does all the prep and they just have someone to mask it and shoot it it can be done cheap enough $400-500 in materials.
Your 100% right, to pay the labor for that much prep work would cost a lot.
 
There are some incredibly high quality paints available now. Considerably more expensive than common manufacturers would choose. I suspect that only high end cars have such expensive paints, well North of $1000 per gallon.

As for lifespan, I can't really know. However, we used some very expensive automotive base/clear paint on our helicopter. It's held up amazingly well over the last 13 years. Unlike the other, less expensive paints.
 
A well cared for older vehicle with a high quality non-clearcoat factory paint can be buffed into fine shape. Just buffing off the haze on my son'e 83 633I has made it look almost new. Clearcoat over a faded color coat, not much can be done with a polish.
 
Originally Posted By: wolfestone
Found an older post here which discussed factory paint vs. repaint durability and finish, and the consensus seemed to be that factory paint is more durable due to the baking, while repaints can achieve a better quality finish.

I have a 25 year old car with factory single stage paint, and am planning on a base/clear repaint. Have improvements in paint chemistry over the years lessened the gap in durability, or is it still going to be significantly softer with the repaint? (assuming the car is prepped and painted by a well respected professional).

thanks for any insight.


I also thought baking resulted in a better finish but it does not. Baking just accelerates the drying time so that the factory/body shop can reduce downtime between cars. Without baking, the car would have to sit for a longer period of time in the paint booth as it dries which slows production.

Paint left to air dry will take longer than baking but once dry there is no difference in the quality of the two.
 
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I've generally not liked some of the clearcoat jobs on an older car that had single stage paints originally=didn't look right so shiny. So I had a couple done in single stage urethane that worked out nicely. In more recent times I guess clear is available in other formulations that can be a bit less shine.
I'm not too sure there are many painters left that can comfortably paint sinle stage anymore=it's easier to fog on the color and flood the clear and then just sand any sins away.
 
I think there's an important distinction that needs to be made. I don't think paint ever fades, as long as it has a good clear coat over it. Therefore, since the clear coat adheres to the paint and primer its important to ensure this bond. If the clear coat begins to peel then the issues begin.

Given this I'm not quite sure how paint can be over $1,000 a gallon.

Any other thoughts on this, agree/disagree?
 
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