Thinner oils and higher wear

[Pontual]

Sure Avgas leads to lead accumulation

Aircraft engine oils use bromide salt as lead scavenger and it will accumulate in the oil, then the hot centrifuge will (would since isn't used in Lycomings, Franklins and Continentals) get some visible stuff, IMO since no leaded fuel is found anymore, for cars around here.

Ah, my reference to lead came from the post #3706619 at page nine.

 

[OVERKILL]

Let's tone down the hostility a bit if we want this conversation to continue. You seem interested, so instead of attacking Doug, why not ask him (in a civil manner) to further elaborate on the points you have issue with?

Regarding some of your earlier statements:

Originally Posted By: Pontual

Ok, you tested centrifuges in a Simca Chambord in the 60's (did you used at least an additivated oil? Like Heavy duty oil, if existent?) and in a Diesel, with very low rpms ...


Question for you:

Why do you feel that the engine rotational speed is relevant to the presence of the centrifuge?

Originally Posted By: Pontual

Lab results?


Doug has tear-down pictures. If you want, I can dig them up. They've been posted on here before. He also did plenty of UOA's, though I'm not sure he's ever posted any of those. This was a fleet of 500HP trucks hauling heavy trains on extended drains as part of a lubrication evaluation test for ExxonMobil. Doug already mentioned his reason for using the centrifuge.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
So say that you should agitate the bottle because gravity would settle the additves to the bottom of it, Imagine in a centrifuge at sustained 6k+ rpms ...


That's a good question. I believe Garak already addressed part of it, which is the heat activation side, which may play in here. It would be good to hear from a formulator/blender (maybe Molakule?) on this topic.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Never heard of a sports bike high revver, with a centrifuge filter. Coincidence?


I don't think it is a coincidence. The primarily purpose of centrifugal filtration is extending lubricant life. Doug's typical OCI's were 90+K Kilometers. In heavy equipment applications, where the volume of lubricant is significant (and subsequently expensive) and downtime is expensive, extending the life of the lubricant in this manner makes sense. This is also on equipment with thousands upon thousands of hours of service life.

In contrast, the relatively short time between rebuilds on a bike, the small sump volume and the insignificance of a fluid change (not to mention the extra bulk of fitting a centrifuge) doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted By: Pontual
That's not good evidence to me, sorry.


What further evidence do you need? I don't think you can question the experience. If it was adequate for ExxonMobil then it is certainly fine for the rest of us. However, as I tried to point out above, this type of filtration (along with bypass filtration) may not make sense depending on the context. Many OPE run without any form of lube filtration at all and live relatively long lives.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure Avgas leads to lead accumulation

Aircraft engine oils use bromide salt as lead scavenger and it will accumulate in the oil, then the hot centrifuge will (would since isn't used in Lycomings, Franklins and Continentals) get some visible stuff, IMO since no leaded fuel is found anymore, for cars around here.

Ah, my reference to lead came from the post #3706619 at page nine.


OK, you need to further explain what you are saying, I'm not following you here.

The reference in the earlier post was to leaded gasoline used in cars and showing up in the oil and being removed by the centrifuge on that particular unit. Something that stopped when the poster stopped using leaded gas.

Lycoming (on some engines) uses sludge tubes, which perform basically the same function as a centrifuge.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me that lead sludge exists? I just want to be sure we are on the same page before we continue this discussion. And if we agree, then my next question is why you find this an issue? (it's removal via centrifuge).

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure Avgas leads to lead accumulation

Aircraft engine oils use bromide salt as lead scavenger and it will accumulate in the oil, then the hot centrifuge will (would since isn't used in Lycomings, Franklins and Continentals) get some visible stuff, IMO since no leaded fuel is found anymore, for cars around here.

Ah, my reference to lead came from the post #3706619 at page nine.


Well, then, are you actually seeing the Tetraethyl lead dropping out as you assert ?

Or are you seeing the byproducts of combustion of the Tretraethyl lead dropping out, which are inorganic salts and oxides.

BIG difference, I don't beleive that you could centrifuge the TEL out of a fuel sample, as they are an organic, soluble compound...combustion byproducts yes, as they are probbly at best semi-soluble.

Likely I don't think you can centrifuge out ZPDDP, MoDTC etc. but will be abloe to with MoS2, Ws2, and the other suspended (or colloidal) additives.

I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with your analogy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Lycoming calls the lead that ends up in the oil "Lead sludge":
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/TechTips/Key Maintenance.pdf

Originally Posted By: Lycoming
The oil and oil filter element should be routinely
replaced after each 50 hours of engine operation, and the filter
should be cut open in order to examine the material trapped
in the filter for evidence of internal engine damage. In new or
recently overhauled engines, some small particles of metallic
shavings might be found, but these are not dangerous. Metal
found after the first two or three oil changes should be treated
as an indication that a serious problem is developing and a thorough investigation should be undertaken. The oil filter does not
remove contaminants such as water, acids or lead sludge from
the oil. These contaminants are removed by changing the oil.


Also an excerpt from this piece (which is a fantastic read):
http://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6881&d=1409152357

Quote:
This resinous binder also captures lead bromide particles floating in the oil. The
lead particles are not a problem until they “fill” a varnish deposit, adding to its
thickness. It is a common belief that the dispersant holds the lead particles in
suspension, but this is incorrect. They are not acidic and thus are invisible to the
dispersant molecules. The vast majority of the lead bromide particles are also
about one micron in diameter or about 1000 times too large for a dispersant
molecule to bind with and hold in suspension.

The lead particles go on to combine with deposit precursor goo, forming a dense
heavy sludge which settles in the low flow areas like the sump, prop hub and
inside the crankshaft. Lead sludge has the consistency of butter. See Figure 8.
Oil changes performed when the oil is hot maximizes removal of both lead
particles and deposit precursors.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: GemStater
Oh I agree, undetectable but there.

Yep, I can't even detect a difference (within error bars) between an ILSAC rated 30 and a 40 in my G37.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Sure Avgas leads to lead accumulation

Aircraft engine oils use bromide salt as lead scavenger and it will accumulate in the oil, then the hot centrifuge will (would since isn't used in Lycomings, Franklins and Continentals) get some visible stuff, IMO since no leaded fuel is found anymore, for cars around here.


Sorry, you are wrong. Ethylene dibromide is added to the fuel as a lead scavenger. Aircraft engine oils do not contain bromide salts as an additive. The bromide salts found in used oil are contaminates from the reactions of fuel combustion.

Ed

 

[Brigadier]

Higher engine load/drag does not necessarily mean friction. Don't confuse the two.

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
GemStater, from basic physics, higher viscosity oils create more internal engine drag (friction), and that friction requires gasoline to overcome it. Using thinner oils will definitely increase MPG. No doubt.
From a 20 to a 30, engineering studies I've seen say its somewhere around 1% to 2%, depending on the engine, friction modifiers in the oil, and whether its a thicker or thinner version of 20 and 30 weights in the allowed visc spread there.
That might not be enough of a difference for one to see, but its there.

 

[Shannow]

Back on the original topic, this is an interesting series of experiments

Google books "High-temperature, High-shear (HTHS) Oil Viscosity: Measurement"

Shows the effect on MOFT on the first and second newtonian (HTHS) viscosity periods, at different engine speeds, demonstrating my previous point on viscosity, MOFT, and particle size that can clear.

Has some work on the GM 3.8 with measured and predicted MOFT, fuel consumption and wear parameters on a number of viscosities, both straight grade and multigrade (would still run a 20W20 in mine if I could find one).

Enjoy.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Remember the Kendall GT-1 semi-synthetic 5w-20 used in the taxi test? It did very well over 100,000 miles, changed at 10,000 mile intervals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg


I have yet to see a modular V8 4.6 in taxi or livery running past 300k without a blue smoke and 5+ layers of black electrical tape over CEL on its dashboard.

That kendall test was a triumph of the first 100k on new engines. For mysterious reasons they did not follow up by 600k on the same engine. If they still do it, without me knowing it and come up with the same stellar results, I will eat my hat and embrace the New Era.
I have nothing against higher efficiency and lower emissions, just prove the longevity in my application. I am all for it then. Just a simple matter of capex and opex in business.

 

[4wheeldog]

The question would be, do those taxis blow more or less blue smoke, if run with 10W/30, than with 5W/20? My guess that there would be little difference. The fact that it is rings and possibly valve guides that start to leak would indicate tha the bearings are still holding up. And, I doubt that 30 weight oil would help rings and valve guides appreciably.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Remember the Kendall GT-1 semi-synthetic 5w-20 used in the taxi test? It did very well over 100,000 miles, changed at 10,000 mile intervals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpQzkeNAvg


I have yet to see a modular V8 4.6 in taxi or livery running past 300k without a blue smoke and 5+ layers of black electrical tape over CEL on its dashboard.



Possibly neglect by the taxi and livery service. Layers of black electrical tape over a CEL indicates neglect.

Whimsey

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Possibly neglect by the taxi and livery service. Layers of black electrical tape over a CEL indicates neglect.
Whimsey


Possibly yes. let's look at how they operate the Co first, there are some differences and yet there are many similarities.

1. Company cars
2. Owners

The differences should be obvious without elaboration. Another factor to take into account: cab companies are notorious for embezzlement. Different styles and methods though.

In short: Caprice would start consuming oil after 600K and CrownVic after 450k on 10W-30 to start with, switching to 20W-50 dyno. A lot of owners run syn 5W-30 with the same results.

let's take a typical company car driver case: either a newcomer immigrant or a broke real estate tycoon. He checks the oil level before going out, e=sees it needs more, goes to so called Lot SuperIntendant who gives him 5W-20 since it's a relatively new car and he goes by a chart on his desk wall - that's how the company set it up. Why? You better not know this..
When you talk about company cars in some companies it's nothing but neglect, don't get me started. If you knew everything I do, you'd research your ground transportation option well in advance and keep your knowledge of the market refreshed. There are good ones, of course.
Air conditioner? Brake fluid ever changed in 600K? Tires?
it's a Third World, when it comes to taxi business. I am glad that Uber and other disruptive forces are killing them - better for consumer from every angle, most importantly from the safety standpoint.

Prius is also an extremely interesting subject. Very different from generation to generation.

 

[KCJeep]

The police department here has run Crown Vics on bulk dino Castrol 5w20 and 5k OCI's for years. They run a good service life and oil related problems are basically non-existent (read mechanical failure).

They do however typically start to exhibit notable consumption around 125k or so. Those that make it to around 200 are usually smoking badly and gulping oil, while making considerably less power.

Would this be different if they ran 10w30 the whole time?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
The police department here has run Crown Vics on bulk dino Castrol 5w20 and 5k OCI's for years. They run a good service life and oil related problems are basically non-existent (read mechanical failure).

They do however typically start to exhibit notable consumption around 125k or so. Those that make it to around 200 are usually smoking badly and gulping oil, while making considerably less power.

Would this be different if they ran 10w30 the whole time?


I'd love to know the answer [not someone's opinion] if they ran 5W30 the whole time since it's a more popular grade than 10W30.

 

[B320i]

"it's a Third World, when it comes to taxi business. I am glad that Uber and other disruptive forces are killing them - better for consumer from every angle, most importantly from the safety standpoint."

Thankfully in Australia, those hideously expensive taxi plates and licenses our drivers get ensure a reasonably safe ride. As a driver told me - the car's get serviced every other week, then from there is tyres, brakes, the works.
With Uber - The driver isn't licensed for the job he's doing, he doesn't have the license plates - since they're so [censored] expensive and who knows whether he's kept his car up to snuff! The former two points are why Uber is cheaper - because they're flaunting the law. And even with the hideous prices one pays for a taxi, the driver, in Australia, is typically earning less than minimum wage, about $9-10 per hour. Works out to about $20-30K a year - which is a pretty meek existence with the cost of living.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: B320i
Thankfully in Australia, those hideously expensive taxi plates and licenses our drivers get ensure a reasonably safe ride. As a driver told me - the car's get serviced every other week, then from there is tyres, brakes, the works.
With Uber - The driver isn't licensed for the job he's doing, he doesn't have the license

We had that anti-Uber propaganda here as well, until the local city fathers got their cut finally. All of a sudden Uber is your friend. Last time I looked into Uber about 3 years ago, it was all opposite to what the agitprop dept would tell ya. Proper commercial insurance, proper inspections, service log, etc. Here cabs are being serviced every 10 days "and fro there tyres, brakes, the works" as well. A good cab makes 600 miles in 24 hours minimum.
Yes, you have to be licensed in Australia, if you want to be a janitor or a dishwasher, let alone a few months a thousand dollars for taxi 'training' and licensing. Very, very British. Too many intermediaries in the taxi business, the drivers cut is rarely exceeds 15% even if he or she is an owner operator. XIX Century business model, will never be safe, there always will incentives for shortcuts.

Anyway, back to the topic, for whatever reason modular 8 4.6l run easy over 600k when on 0W-40 here

 

[AEHaas]

"I have seen quite a few 20W spec'ed cars puffing lots of blue smoke out tailpipes lately. Namely Acuras, Hondas, Lexus. Maybe they ignored OCI, or used cheap oil....dunno. Is it empirical evidence? No. But I am of the mind that the 20W oil is necessary for the OEM to meet CAFE requirements and save THEM $$$. Once you are out of your warranty - you are on your own."

Maybe these are the people who insisted that thicker is better and have been using 40 grade oils in their cars.

aehaas

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: fourside

The problem with this argument is that it always ends up with a lot of people asking questions like yours above. No, I cannot guarantee that thicker oil wouldn't give an engine a longer life. No, you cannot guarantee that thinner oils will give an engine a shorter life. So where's this debate supposed to go?


I asked myself the same question.

Does Pontual agree with the premise of the original article or disagree with it?

This an article written in the GF-2 GF-3 days.


Quote:
The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.


Not all additives are heat activated. For example, Calcium and Boron work at low temps.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: fourside

The problem with this argument is that it always ends up with a lot of people asking questions like yours above. No, I cannot guarantee that thicker oil wouldn't give an engine a longer life. No, you cannot guarantee that thinner oils will give an engine a shorter life. So where's this debate supposed to go?


I asked myself the same question.

Does Pontual agree with the premise of the original article or disagree with it?


Exactly. The fact that there is no one size fits all makes the question impossible to answer.