(ACEA) A3/B4-08 standards and older SF/CC codes

[MRYGearHead]

Hi,

I'm new, I have been reading stuff here for, a long time...

I downloaded the (ACEA) A3/B4-08 pdf, and it appears that its a more stringent standard than the API or whatever its called (in my case I need SF/CC, 10w40, 20w50 or 5w40).

My 22RTE has sliding followers and I had a premature cam/ engine failure, using name brand modern synthetic SN oil. I suspect, impart this was do to the reduction of ZDDP, or its equivalent.

My question:
Is a A3/B4-08 oil going to be good enough. Is it safe to add in ZDDP into oil without mucking up the chemistry?

One oil I am considering (price is important) is:
http://www.eneos.us/products/eneos-fully-synthetic-motor-oil/eneos-5w-40/

 

[slacktide_bitog]

The 40's and up are fine and not subject to the lower ZDDP limits that taint the lighter stuff.

For example, the high-ZDDP QS Defy and M1HM are rated SL, but the 10w40 versions are SN.

 

[MRYGearHead]

They began to reduce the ZDDP in SG and it was nearly removed or replace by other means by SN, is what I understand?

It was a 5W50 that I primarily used, that may have caused my problems.

 

[weasley]

The ACEA '08 specs were superseded by the ACEA '10 specs, which were then superseded by the ACEA '12 specs; these are where you should be looking (and any current oil should be on the '12 spec too).

In truth you rarely know which year's spec an oil meets because it is not supposed to be part of the specification label - you are supposed to just get an "ACEA A3/B4" product and trust that the manufacturer is playing straight and is using the latest version of the spec.

As for adding stuff to the oil - there is no way of knowing what will happen when you add something to an oil. The chances are it'll be fine, but without knowing exactly what is already in the oil and what exactly you are adding then it is pure guesswork. Remember, "ZDDP" is not a single thing - it is a description of a family of additives and there are hundreds of different types. Some oils use more than one type in them. Since ZDDPs are one of the many 'surface active' ingredients in the oil, adding more (or a different type) may upset the competition for surface bonding, potentially displacing detergents, friction modifiers, other ZDDPs etc.

All this is theoretical - practically the only way to know is to try and to observe.

 

[MRYGearHead]

So, what a guy to do?

I was going to use Rotella T6, but its not a full synthetic oil. The Eneos oil at the time seemed better. Actually I misread the data, and thought I saw that it was rated back to SF, but I must has seen the CF, or SH spec, instead?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MRYGearHead
They began to reduce the ZDDP in SG and it was nearly removed or replace by other means by SN, is what I understand?

Nearly removed is absolutely false. Take a look at some VOAs of vintage oils on the site here, or at Blackstone. Just because limits were reduced doesn't mean they were anywhere near the limits in the first place with older formulations. Additionally, I can't see too many 5w-50 oils having low ZDDP, except, perhaps, the actual Motorcraft stuff for specific Mustangs.

 

[MRYGearHead]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MRYGearHead
They began to reduce the ZDDP in SG and it was nearly removed or replace by other means by SN, is what I understand?

Nearly removed is absolutely false. Take a look at some VOAs of vintage oils on the site here, or at Blackstone. Just because limits were reduced doesn't mean they were anywhere near the limits in the first place with older formulations. Additionally, I can't see too many 5w-50 oils having low ZDDP, except, perhaps, the actual Motorcraft stuff for specific Mustangs.


I am confused...
Are you saying that ZDDP (or other were metals) is at an exceptable levels, for older vehicle? Show me a link to OA. I think I can find the MSDS for my oil, I guess, I could look there for zinc, or what am I looking for?
http://www.eneos.us/wp-content/uploads/2...-Sheet-2014.pdf

 

[Garak]

For most applications, yes. Some, including myself, would feel a little more comfortable with more. Some vehicles with flat tappets and high valve spring pressures might need a little more. Beyond that, though, I wouldn't worry too much. Look at how Chevy small block cams fared even with high ZDDP.

For the Eneos, being a 40, I would suspect it would have more phosphorous than an ILSAC rated 30, but, there's no guarantee in that. I would not use an MSDS for ZDDP content, and the TDS you posted doesn't happen to list it.

For people who are really worried about zinc levels beyond break in, there are oils out there with elevated content from all kinds of manufacturers. Of course, if the content is too high, there is the concern for corrosion.

Basically, if you look at the Blackstone VOAs of vintage oils (have to check their site, I suppose), you can find some with around 600 ppm from the 1960s, and some that are bumping on the upper limits today, with significantly higher phosphorous content than the old oils.

I don't much like additives, except perhaps at break in on an older engine rebuild. Other options include HDEOs. They will have higher ZDDP content, with very few exceptions.

 

[ag_ghost]

Originally Posted By: Garak
For most applications, yes. Some, including myself, would feel a little more comfortable with more. Some vehicles with flat tappets and high valve spring pressures might need a little more. Beyond that, though, I wouldn't worry too much. Look at how Chevy small block cams fared even with high ZDDP.

For the Eneos, being a 40, I would suspect it would have more phosphorous than an ILSAC rated 30, but, there's no guarantee in that. I would not use an MSDS for ZDDP content, and the TDS you posted doesn't happen to list it.

For people who are really worried about zinc levels beyond break in, there are oils out there with elevated content from all kinds of manufacturers. Of course, if the content is too high, there is the concern for corrosion.

Basically, if you look at the Blackstone VOAs of vintage oils (have to check their site, I suppose), you can find some with around 600 ppm from the 1960s, and some that are bumping on the upper limits today, with significantly higher phosphorous content than the old oils.

I don't much like additives, except perhaps at break in on an older engine rebuild. Other options include HDEOs. They will have higher ZDDP content, with very few exceptions.

All said better than I can:
Here're the VOAs noted above:
Blackstone Labs VOA of old oils
Kevin

 

[Garak]

Thanks for that. I was too lazy to look it up.

And to add to this, some of the high ZDDP oils (non-racing) are expensive enough that a couple oil changes equals the cost of parts on a cam and lifter job on a SBC. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[panther427]

There are 2 supplements that would help. GM EOS. BG M.O.A.
They are both additives in a can and there is voa on this site of both.

 

[Kamele0N]

You can still buy engine oil intended for ATVs or motocycles with shared sump...these oils are API SG...Jaso MA/MA2 rated...and you are on safe side with amount of zddp content...

 

[Kamele0N]

It will be little more on pricy side...

And count on that that motocycle oils dont have high TBN value...so therfore than you will have to count on shorter OCIs...