M1 0w40 (3,114 miles) Pentastar V6, Wrangler 2Dr

[davison0976]

Hello All! I had ran M1 0w40 over the winter months with daily cold starts at temperatures below 20F. I am fairly happy with the results given the conditions. My commute is only 7 miles which only adds to the severity.

The only thing I can't seem to do is to shake off those higher Copper numbers. Copper oil cooler is the only explanation I've managed to find online. But I find it hard to believe. I mean, oil rushes through the cooler and somehow erodes Copper, while Iron parts rubbing against each other produce less wear.

Does anyone have any idea as to the source of the Copper besides the oil cooler? Any suggestion is much appreciated.

 

[901Memphis]

It looks like your engine is showing break in noise still, hard to tell it should continue to drop in subsequent uoas I would imagine.

Normal sources of copper are the sacrificial layer on the bearings. Many American engines especially GM throw tons of copper and still make 250k+ motors usually.

Do you have an oil cooler? That could be it in which case it's harmless. The thing to watch for with copper is lead, without lead don't worry too much.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm just curious, the early Pentastar engine in the 2012 Wrangler called for 5W30. 2013 and on 5W20, what year is yours? Other than copper most likely from the oil cooler the UOA looks good. So much for "thick oil" causing more wear in the cold months.

Thanks for posting.

 

[6starprez]

Most likely the oil cooler causing the elevated copper reading.

After the first OCI, that 10K rated Amsoil XL broke down pretty fast. Good thing you didn't go 7,500+.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm just curious, the early Pentastar engine in the 2012 Wrangler called for 5W30.


There are a few theories floating around.

The anti-thin-oil crowd believes the 5w-20 is for fuel mileage and that unless you run an absurdly thick oil, the engine won't last. The other reason I have heard is it flows more 5w-20 and that keeps the headifold temps a bit more in check and they don't have as many valve issues.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm just curious, the early Pentastar engine in the 2012 Wrangler called for 5W30.


There are a few theories floating around.

The anti-thin-oil crowd believes the 5w-20 is for fuel mileage and that unless you run an absurdly thick oil, the engine won't last. The other reason I have heard is it flows more 5w-20 and that keeps the headifold temps a bit more in check and they don't have as many valve issues.


Correct, here are lots of theories on it. I also heard the 2013 and later use a different oil pump, but I never bothered to check. What the OP's UOA shows me is the engine will run nicely on 0W40 too, if someone was inclined to use it.

 

[abycat]

I'm not a fan of putting thicker than called for oil in a vehicle. especially a stock one. Copper could also be from sealants used when assembling.

 

[racin4ds]

What this shows me is that both Amsoil runs showed much higher Iron, copper and Aluminum numbers than any other oil and also [censored] TBN... once again proves to me that Amsoil is a joke and not worth the money

And another thing, why are you only running these top tier synthetics for 3000 miles?? you're wasting money...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Maybe composite sintered cam spockets and chain tossing the Cu.

I dont think may engines today use Cu cam journal bearings anymore.

Or DO they ... .

 

[SnowDrifter]

Buddy of mine works for Chrysler and according to him, a head and lifter redesign to alleviate the cracked head issue necessitates a 20w oil

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: SnowDrifter
Buddy of mine works for Chrysler and according to him, a head and lifter redesign to alleviate the cracked head issue necessitates a 20w oil
Really ???

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm just curious, the early Pentastar engine in the 2012 Wrangler called for 5W30.


There are a few theories floating around.

The anti-thin-oil crowd believes the 5w-20 is for fuel mileage and that unless you run an absurdly thick oil, the engine won't last. The other reason I have heard is it flows more 5w-20 and that keeps the headifold temps a bit more in check and they don't have as many valve issues.
Xw-20 oils are all about CAFE.

 

[SnowDrifter]

Not sure what you mean by really?

They extended the warranty on the head to 10yr150k because of it

 

[SnowDrifter]

What's CAFE about designing engines to run on 20 weight? Back specing cars to 20w is cafe. Designing them to use it isn't.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

No such thing as 20 weight.

W= Winter; SAE 20W, 20,30, 40,50 = Grade.

No CAFE = Yould prob never have seen a XW-20 MultiGrade ILSAC except for Honda Or Mitsu chasing the efficiency marketing tail.

 

[webfors]

Waste running this oil for 3k miles.

 

[zpinch]

Originally Posted By: racin4ds
What this shows me is that both Amsoil runs showed much higher Iron, copper and Aluminum numbers than any other oil and also [censored] TBN... once again proves to me that Amsoil is a joke and not worth the money

And another thing, why are you only running these top tier synthetics for 3000 miles?? you're wasting money...


What is a joke, is you trying to correlate a certain oil brand with results in a UOA, in the first few thousand miles of a NEW engine. You can't relate anything yet in these UOA, it's all noise so far. Amsoil IS top of the line oil, just like the Pennzoil and Mobil 1.

 

[davison0976]

I forgot to mention it's 2013 Wrangler. The PP 5w20 run includes 800miles highway trip.

Amsoil is definitely not getting a fair treatment here, no question about it, because engine was still breaking-in during those OCIs.

As far as running a 0w40 oil like M1 in this engine with top certifications like ACEA A3/B4, MB 229.5, VW 502.00/505.00 etc. I personally don't see any issues with, especially given the UOA results. Even the manual is not against it. Here is what it says:
NOTE: SAE 5W-30 engine oil approved to Fiat 9.55535-S1
or Fiat 9.55535-S3 may be used when SAE 5W-20 engine
oil meeting MS- 6395 is not available.

If you do some research, you'll find that Fiat 9.55535-S1 spec is "attached" to ACEA C2 oils, and Fiat 9.55535-S3 goes with ACEA C3. The main difference is that C2 is resource conserving and C3 is stay-in-grade HTHS >= 3.5 oil. The ACEA C3 oils are suitable to run with low SAPS, no ethanol fuels. In North America the best equivalent to C3 is ACEA A3/A4 (also a HTHS >= 3.5 spec) because it has higher starting TBN. The ACEA A3/A4 also has higher SAPS limits. For Pentastar V6 it's only higher Phosphor that we should be concerned about. However, M1 0w40 Phosphor levels are very much in line with the MS-6395 spec. Furthermore, since M1 0w40 shears to 30 grade oil almost immediately, the Wrangler manual is effectively saying it's OK to run 0w40 oils like M1.

All this 5w20 business is nothing but CAFE regulation forced upon US manufacturers where companies have to pay penalties for each vehicle produced that exceeds a certain MPG per footprint of the vehicle, defined as track width * wheelbase. Incidentally, and if you have noticed, this also explains why vehicles in general are getting bulkier, i.e. larger footprint and naturally aspiring engines are revised to include supercharges, turbos and direct injection.

No, you don't have to run super thick oil, like someone had sarcastically remarked, but in the long run 5w30 to 10w40 oils with HTHS > 3 will protect the engine better in terms of wear.

Take a look at what a professional engine builder David Reher has to say about this:
The Hidden Cost of Free Horsepower

 

[Merkava_4]

Wow - look at that viscosity. That's gotta be the thinnest 40 weight I've ever seen.