2001 Jeep grand Cherokee - two UOAs

[Donald]

I am posting two UOAs that I have just had time to post. Not sure what to conclude other than a bearing is going.
Test# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mileage 9622 5184 5606 5334 5679 6985 8195
Iron 146 43 26 28 55 50 84
Chrom 4 1 1 1 1 1 4
Nickel 1 0 0 0 0 0 Alum 4 1 1 1 2 3 10
Copper 23 12 16 20 24 17 26
Lead 15 8 4 3 47 31 16
Tin 2 1 1 1 2 2 2
Cadmi 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silv 0 0 0 0 0 0 Vanad 0 0 0 0 0 0 Silicon 25 12 13 8 12 13 27
Sodiu 18 6 6 9 15 10 19
Potas 6 1 5 0 0 3 7
Titan 0 1 0 0 0 0 Moly 61 58 67 62 61 46 59
Antim 1 0 0 1 0 1
Mang 2 0 0 0 0 0
Lith 0 0 0 0 0 0
Boron 280 163 30 21 23 8 212
Magn 14 14 892 1041 1049 207 65
Calc 3611 2651 1008 814 737 2170 2928
Bari 0 0 0 0 0 0 Phos 772 723 868 942 921 721 730
Zinc 923 864 1103 1189 1143 897 914
Fuel Soot Water V@100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3 13.5 10.9 10.2
TBN 3.4 4.47 4.22 NES 4.13 3.49 3.0
Oxi 20 25 17 NES 30 18
Nit 16 12 13 NES 14 13

(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)
Test#1 PU
Test#2 PU
Test#3 T6
Test#4 T6
Test#5 T6
Test#6 PP
Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)

 

[Kira]

Hello, The size of the numbers suggest to my untrained eye that 5,000 mile OCI's are in your future.
Of course, I don't know what value of any of the elements is acceptable or normal.
The Boron, Magn and Calc numbers seem to jump wildly out of step with the others.
The same ignorance applies. Kira

 

[Ramblejam]

Code:


Test# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Mileage 9622 5184 5606 5334 5679 6985 8195

Iron 146 43 26 28 55 50 84

Chrom 4 1 1 1 1 1 4

Nickel 1 0 0 0 0 0
Alum 4 1 1 1 2 3 10

Copper 23 12 16 20 24 17 26

Lead 15 8 4 3 47 31 16

Tin 2 1 1 1 2 2 2

Cadmi 0 0 0 0 0 0

Silv 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vanad 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silicon 25 12 13 8 12 13 27

Sodium 18 6 6 9 15 10 19

Potas 6 1 5 0 0 3 7

Titan 0 1 0 0 0 0
Moly 61 58 67 62 61 46 59

Antim 1 0 0 1 0 1

Mang 2 0 0 0 0 0

Lith 0 0 0 0 0 0

Boron 280 163 30 21 23 8 212

Magn 14 14 892 1041 1049 207 65

Calc 3611 2651 1008 814 737 2170 2928

Bari 0 0 0 0 0 0
Phos 772 723 868 942 921 721 730

Zinc 923 864 1103 1189 1143 897 914

Fuel
Soot
Water
V@100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3 13.5 10.9 10.2

TBN 3.4 4.47 4.22 NES 4.13 3.49 3.0

Oxi 20 25 17 NES 30 18

Nit 16 12 13 NES 14 13

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Kira
Hello, The size of the numbers suggest to my untrained eye that 5,000 mile OCI's are in your future.
Of course, I don't know what value of any of the elements is acceptable or normal.
The Boron, Magn and Calc numbers seem to jump wildly out of step with the others.
The same ignorance applies. Kira


I think the wild changes for the additives was going from T6 to PP.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Code:


Test# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Mileage 9622 5184 5606 5334 5679 6985 8195

Iron 146 43 26 28 55 50 84

Chrom 4 1 1 1 1 1 4

Nickel 1 0 0 0 0 0
Alum 4 1 1 1 2 3 10

Copper 23 12 16 20 24 17 26

Lead 15 8 4 3 47 31 16

Tin 2 1 1 1 2 2 2

Cadmi 0 0 0 0 0 0

Silv 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vanad 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silicon 25 12 13 8 12 13 27

Sodium 18 6 6 9 15 10 19

Potas 6 1 5 0 0 3 7

Titan 0 1 0 0 0 0
Moly 61 58 67 62 61 46 59

Antim 1 0 0 1 0 1

Mang 2 0 0 0 0 0

Lith 0 0 0 0 0 0

Boron 280 163 30 21 23 8 212

Magn 14 14 892 1041 1049 207 65

Calc 3611 2651 1008 814 737 2170 2928

Bari 0 0 0 0 0 0
Phos 772 723 868 942 921 721 730

Zinc 923 864 1103 1189 1143 897 914

Fuel
Soot
Water
V@100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3 13.5 10.9 10.2

TBN 3.4 4.47 4.22 NES 4.13 3.49 3.0

Oxi 20 25 17 NES 30 18

Nit 16 12 13 NES 14 13



Thanks, I forgot how to do that and was trying to figure it out.

 

[Donald]

Code:


Test# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Mileage 9622 5184 5606 5334 5679 6985 8195

Iron 146 43 26 28 55 50 84

Chrom 4 1 1 1 1 1 4

Nickel 1 0 0 0 0 0
Alum 4 1 1 1 2 3 10

Copper 23 12 16 20 24 17 26

Lead 15 8 4 3 47 31 16

Tin 2 1 1 1 2 2 2

Cadmi 0 0 0 0 0 0

Silv 0 0 0 0 0 0
Vanad 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silicon 25 12 13 8 12 13 27

Sodiu 18 6 6 9 15 10 19

Potas 6 1 5 0 0 3 7

Titan 0 1 0 0 0 0
Moly 61 58 67 62 61 46 59

Antim 1 0 0 1 0 1

Mang 2 0 0 0 0 0

Lith 0 0 0 0 0 0

Boron 280 163 30 21 23 8 212

Magn 14 14 892 1041 1049 207 65

Calc 3611 2651 1008 814 737 2170 2928

Bari 0 0 0 0 0 0
Phos 772 723 868 942 921 721 730

Zinc 923 864 1103 1189 1143 897 914

Fuel
Soot
Water
V@100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3 13.5 10.9 10.2

TBN 3.4 4.47 4.22 NES 4.13 3.49 3.0

Oxi 20 25 17 NES 30 18

Nit 16 12 13 NES 14 13



(first to last) (all tests done by Polaris unless otherwise noted)

Test#1 PU

Test#2 PU

Test#3 T6

Test#4 T6

Test#5 T6

Test#6 PP

Test#7 PP (test done by NAPA)

 

[440Magnum]

You had a lead "spike" and then a decline... I wouldn't conclude that a bearing "is going." I think you had an embedding event (piece of junk got into a bearing) and the scar is wearing back down. Modern bearings have limited embeddability and don't like that kind of thing, but they can tolerate a situation like that once or twice in their lives.

I'd keep tabs on it and see if the numbers continue to decline again. And also, use the best filter you can- Fram Ultra comes to mind, I'd lose the M1 filter on cost/benefit alone. If I'm going to pay M1 prices for a filter, it will be a wire-backed synthetic filter and that means Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, or Royal Purple. They really need to get competitive.

 

[Chris142]

IMO iron is out of control. He has to be losing a cam and lifters,rocker etc.

 

[bigt61]

How many miles on this Jeep? What kind of usage? Any makeup oil? Nothing looks critical to me, but there are a few things to monitor. I agree with 440Magnum above that you probably had a dirt event in a bearing to cause the lead spike. All you can do is drive it until it's starts knocking, if it ever does. I think the Jeep 4.0's are durable but I've never owned one long.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You had a lead "spike" and then a decline... I wouldn't conclude that a bearing "is going." I think you had an embedding event (piece of junk got into a bearing) and the scar is wearing back down. Modern bearings have limited embeddability and don't like that kind of thing, but they can tolerate a situation like that once or twice in their lives.

I'd keep tabs on it and see if the numbers continue to decline again. And also, use the best filter you can- Fram Ultra comes to mind, I'd lose the M1 filter on cost/benefit alone. If I'm going to pay M1 prices for a filter, it will be a wire-backed synthetic filter and that means Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, or Royal Purple. They really need to get competitive.




The first UOA started at around 20,000 miles. So in my estimation, the copper was high as soon as the engine was broken in.

BTW - the engine was a REMAN engine.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

I'd keep tabs on it and see if the numbers continue to decline again. And also, use the best filter you can- Fram Ultra comes to mind, I'd lose the M1 filter on cost/benefit alone. If I'm going to pay M1 prices for a filter, it will be a wire-backed synthetic filter and that means Fram Ultra, Purolator Synthetic, or Royal Purple. They really need to get competitive.




As for the current filter I have a Microgreen filter. It claims to go to 2 microns in the section of the filter that is not full flow. So then could I still have a bearing issue putting out copper and/or lead, but the filter picking all that stuff up and my UOA looking very normal.

The first UOA started at around 20,000 miles. So in my estimation, the copper was high as soon as the engine was broken in.

BTW - the engine was a REMAN engine.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
IMO iron is out of control. He has to be losing a cam and lifters,rocker etc.


Maybe. Maybe not. A modern engine with iron numbers like that would scare me shirtless, but I've seen pretty high iron numbers sustained indefinitely with no obvious ill effects in some old-school engines. I swear some of it gets in the oil directly from the block, heads, and all the other masses of iron in an engine like that. Yes, it could be cam and lifter wear, but they can tolerate a fair amount of wear for a long time before failure. It could also be something as innocuous as the oil pump itself or the timing chain and gears. He did say its a reman engine, so

I also notice that the iron took a dip during the time he was using Rotella. Hmm.... maybe that extra ZDDP is worth it, eh?

Sometimes I think UOA's just scare people more than they're worth. If this were my 4.0, I'd go back to Rotella and a Fram Ultra (or similar) and drive on. I might not want to set off cross-country until I saw those numbers come down a little, but I wouldn't hesitate to keep commuting with it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: I'd throw out the most recent analysis from any trend estimate, since he said he changed labs for that one. Notice that almost every component shifted somewhat in that last analysis, whereas the other analyses had iron and copper anomalies, but most everything else tracked with the type of oil changing. For tracking things from here on out, I'd go back to the same lab as the earlier analyses, if possible.

 

[Kuato]

The 4.0 does throw a lot of Iron, although that's a bit more than my '04 used to shed at that distance.

It does look like from the bump in materials there was some sort of event for #5. Were there lots of winter starts, towing, or did something else happen during that interval?

 

[Chris142]

The universal averages for the 4.0 is about 20ppm. Mine was always much lower than that. His iron is huge IMO and something is failing. If its a can once it gets past the hardening things grind up real fast

 

[KCJeep]

I can't speak the gloom and doom over this engine some are, this particular engine has always thrown high wear numbers ever since he started doing UOA's on it.

I'd suggest returning to the Rotella 5w40 and the same lab, I bet the numbers will be pretty close to as before.

 

[Donald]

The only issue with Rotella 5W40 is that it cuts mileage by a MPG or two.

 

[Donald]

So what about my idea that going to a MicroGreen will remove the contaminants but the engine will still be wearing.

The silicon is higher than I would like to see also.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Donald
So what about my idea that going to a MicroGreen will remove the contaminants but the engine will still be wearing.

The silicon is higher than I would like to see also.


I doubt a filter would clean up your UOA, the particle sizes are just not in the same range that UOAs reveal. Silicon doesn't come from inside the engine except for gasket sealants... air intake tract leak? Loosing coolant into the oil?

 

[Donald]

I found the vacuum line to the cruise control servo had fallen off the intake manifold. So maybe that is the cause of high silicon and iron.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Donald
I found the vacuum line to the cruise control servo had fallen off the intake manifold. So maybe that is the cause of high silicon and iron.


Is this the thing right behind the brake fluid reservoir?