I'll suggest another reason why manufacturers and owner manuals suggest waiting until the oil level drops to the add line on the dipstick: MARKETING. These manufacturers are concerned that about the image your neighbors and coworkers will have if they frequently see you with the hood up on your car, not knowing what you really are doing under there, and think - wow, I'm glad I didn't buy that brand of car. Looks like that guy has to do some maintainance/ repair/ adjustment under the hood all the time - if he's got an oil container with him, maybe he's putting up with an oil burner. Or of course if they were thinking of someday buying that brand of car, the perception of high-maintenance or mechanical problems may indeed deter them.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
I'll suggest another reason why manufacturers and owner manuals suggest waiting until the oil level drops to the add line on the dipstick: MARKETING. These manufacturers are concerned that about the image your neighbors and coworkers will have if they frequently see you with the hood up on your car, not knowing what you really are doing under there, and think - wow, I'm glad I didn't buy that brand of car. Looks like that guy has to do some maintainance/ repair/ adjustment under the hood all the time - if he's got an oil container with him, maybe he's putting up with an oil burner. Or of course if they were thinking of someday buying that brand of car, the perception of high-maintenance or mechanical problems may indeed deter them.
That doesn't change the frequency on CHECKING the oil though. How do you know where you are on the dipstick if you don't check? The hood is going up regardless of whether you are topping up or just checking it
So the image is the same.
Our Charger for example recommends checking the oil regularly, such as every time you get gas:
I'll suggest another reason why manufacturers and owner manuals suggest waiting until the oil level drops to the add line on the dipstick: MARKETING. These manufacturers are concerned that about the image your neighbors and coworkers will have if they frequently see you with the hood up on your car, not knowing what you really are doing under there, and think - wow, I'm glad I didn't buy that brand of car. Looks like that guy has to do some maintainance/ repair/ adjustment under the hood all the time - if he's got an oil container with him, maybe he's putting up with an oil burner. Or of course if they were thinking of someday buying that brand of car, the perception of high-maintenance or mechanical problems may indeed deter them.
That doesn't change the frequency on CHECKING the oil though. How do you know where you are on the dipstick if you don't check? The hood is going up regardless of whether you are topping up or just checking it
Our Charger for example recommends checking the oil regularly, such as every time you get gas:
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.
Agree.
My LS400 consumes 1/2 quarts in 3-4k miles, I do 1 year OCI up to 17-20k miles with synthetic and 6 months/8-10k miles OCI with dino. I don't top off with dino since it still above add mark at OCI time, I add a little more than a quart with synthetic during 17-20k miles.
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.
Agree.
My LS400 consumes 1/2 quarts in 3-4k miles, I do 1 year OCI up to 17-20k miles with synthetic and 6 months/8-10k miles OCI with dino. I don't top off with dino since it still above add mark at OCI time, I add a little more than a quart with synthetic during 17-20k miles.
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Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
But calling other people stupid because they don't follow your process, despite the fact that you have ZERO evidence to prove that your method is somehow superior, is just plain rude and doesn't help anybody on this board.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with somebody, I disagree with people all the time on here, that's how we have great discussions. But tossing out insults doesn't lead to discussions and it certainly doesn't lend itself to encouraging others to consider your viewpoint.
SilverSnake, you're been here almost a year you should know by now that OVERKILL is one of the better posters here on BITOG forum.
OVERKILL is right about he had some disagreements with some posters on some subjects/topics, but he and other posters almost never tossed any insult to one another.
OVERKILL and I had some arguments on some topics, but we never insult one another. What we had were lively discussion and ended up agree to disagree. He likes car brand A and I like car brand B, he likes tire X and I like tire Y, we posted our opinions why/how we use our cars and why we like what we like. Just think about this, assume you like your steak medium and like my steak well done there is nothing wrong with either, you state your reason and I do the same, and we end up agree to disagree about why we like what we like.
In summary, lively discussion is one thing insult/calling other member(s) name is another.
I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
But calling other people stupid because they don't follow your process, despite the fact that you have ZERO evidence to prove that your method is somehow superior, is just plain rude and doesn't help anybody on this board.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with somebody, I disagree with people all the time on here, that's how we have great discussions. But tossing out insults doesn't lead to discussions and it certainly doesn't lend itself to encouraging others to consider your viewpoint.
SilverSnake, you're been here almost a year you should know by now that OVERKILL is one of the better posters here on BITOG forum.
OVERKILL is right about he had some disagreements with some posters on some subjects/topics, but he and other posters almost never tossed any insult to one another.
OVERKILL and I had some arguments on some topics, but we never insult one another. What we had were lively discussion and ended up agree to disagree. He likes car brand A and I like car brand B, he likes tire X and I like tire Y, we posted our opinions why/how we use our cars and why we like what we like. Just think about this, assume you like your steak medium and like my steak well done there is nothing wrong with either, you state your reason and I do the same, and we end up agree to disagree about why we like what we like.
In summary, lively discussion is one thing insult/calling other member(s) name is another.
The real reason many owner's manuals say to add a quart only when the level is at or very near the lower line on the dipstick is because they are throwing out the simplest procedure possible. Thats it. Its fine if you keep the oil topped up to the Full Line! As long as you are careful enough to not overfill, it actually is nice your engine is getting fresh additives as soon as it can.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
But calling other people stupid because they don't follow your process, despite the fact that you have ZERO evidence to prove that your method is somehow superior, is just plain rude and doesn't help anybody on this board.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with somebody, I disagree with people all the time on here, that's how we have great discussions. But tossing out insults doesn't lead to discussions and it certainly doesn't lend itself to encouraging others to consider your viewpoint.
SilverSnake, you're been here almost a year you should know by now that OVERKILL is one of the better posters here on BITOG forum.
OVERKILL is right about he had some disagreements with some posters on some subjects/topics, but he and other posters almost never tossed any insult to one another.
OVERKILL and I had some arguments on some topics, but we never insult one another. What we had were lively discussion and ended up agree to disagree. He likes car brand A and I like car brand B, he likes tire X and I like tire Y, we posted our opinions why/how we use our cars and why we like what we like. Just think about this, assume you like your steak medium and like my steak well done there is nothing wrong with either, you state your reason and I do the same, and we end up agree to disagree about why we like what we like.
In summary, lively discussion is one thing insult/calling other member(s) name is another.
How many times do I have to surrender HTSS_TR? If you read my original objectionable post, I did not actually insult anyone directly. What I said, and I quote:
"I guess you missed the part where I said that to statement in the OM was aimed at people too stupid to realize that you can add less than a quart of oil to an engine."
My point was that some people actually believe that you have to add a quart if you add any at all. I think everyone will agree that is not the case. The Owner's Manuals for cars are aimed at the lowest common denominator (as they should be).
If you members with thousands of posts pledge to stop beating up on me, I pledge to me more careful with my choice of words in the future.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
But calling other people stupid because they don't follow your process, despite the fact that you have ZERO evidence to prove that your method is somehow superior, is just plain rude and doesn't help anybody on this board.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with somebody, I disagree with people all the time on here, that's how we have great discussions. But tossing out insults doesn't lead to discussions and it certainly doesn't lend itself to encouraging others to consider your viewpoint.
SilverSnake, you're been here almost a year you should know by now that OVERKILL is one of the better posters here on BITOG forum.
OVERKILL is right about he had some disagreements with some posters on some subjects/topics, but he and other posters almost never tossed any insult to one another.
OVERKILL and I had some arguments on some topics, but we never insult one another. What we had were lively discussion and ended up agree to disagree. He likes car brand A and I like car brand B, he likes tire X and I like tire Y, we posted our opinions why/how we use our cars and why we like what we like. Just think about this, assume you like your steak medium and like my steak well done there is nothing wrong with either, you state your reason and I do the same, and we end up agree to disagree about why we like what we like.
In summary, lively discussion is one thing insult/calling other member(s) name is another.
How many times do I have to surrender HTSS_TR? If you read my original objectionable post, I did not actually insult anyone directly. What I said, and I quote:
"I guess you missed the part where I said that to statement in the OM was aimed at people too stupid to realize that you can add less than a quart of oil to an engine."
My point was that some people actually believe that you have to add a quart if you add any at all. I think everyone will agree that is not the case. The Owner's Manuals for cars are aimed at the lowest common denominator (as they should be).
If you members with thousands of posts pledge to stop beating up on me, I pledge to me more careful with my choice of words in the future.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: fredfactory
The real reason many owner's manuals say to add a quart only when the level is at or very near the lower line on the dipstick is because they are throwing out the simplest procedure possible. Thats it. Its fine if you keep the oil topped up to the Full Line! As long as you are careful enough to not overfill, it actually is nice your engine is getting fresh additives as soon as it can.
This would have some merit if it lent itself to increased longevity but in my experience it is actually the opposite to this. Healthy engines generally consume little to no oil between change intervals and subsequently require little to no top-up whilst the unhealthy ones are the consumers and the ones getting their "add pack topped up"
My Expedition, when run on M1 AFE 0w-30, uses nothing visible on the dipstick between changes. The Charger, currently on AFE 0w-20, has also not had to be topped up so far on its 10K OCI. The M5 generally uses about 1L per 8,000Km, which is extremely low for the S62.
I understand what you are saying, don't get me wrong, but in application, I haven't seen it play out that way. The million mile taxi cabs aren't getting frequent top ups to keep them at the full line, just regular OCI's with a periodic check and top-up if necessary. Same goes for the LEO vehicles.
The real reason many owner's manuals say to add a quart only when the level is at or very near the lower line on the dipstick is because they are throwing out the simplest procedure possible. Thats it. Its fine if you keep the oil topped up to the Full Line! As long as you are careful enough to not overfill, it actually is nice your engine is getting fresh additives as soon as it can.
This would have some merit if it lent itself to increased longevity but in my experience it is actually the opposite to this. Healthy engines generally consume little to no oil between change intervals and subsequently require little to no top-up whilst the unhealthy ones are the consumers and the ones getting their "add pack topped up"
My Expedition, when run on M1 AFE 0w-30, uses nothing visible on the dipstick between changes. The Charger, currently on AFE 0w-20, has also not had to be topped up so far on its 10K OCI. The M5 generally uses about 1L per 8,000Km, which is extremely low for the S62.
I understand what you are saying, don't get me wrong, but in application, I haven't seen it play out that way. The million mile taxi cabs aren't getting frequent top ups to keep them at the full line, just regular OCI's with a periodic check and top-up if necessary. Same goes for the LEO vehicles.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
This probably should be translated to better understanding the rate at which the vehicle burns oil per 1000km or so and adding sufficient oil to keep it just below the full mark.
There is merit to having the minimum amount oil in the sump as this will help the oil get to correct operating temperature quicker and help with the burn off of water and other byproducts.
A larger sump full of oil is the converse for short trips to help keep oil dilution at a minimum.
This OEM instruction sounds like its aimed more at the convenience of owners who don't like a opening a hood.
There some threads where BITOGers add half a quart or more above the full mark and are proud of it. I am not in favor of this.
Its only a vehicle its not a chariot to be used to take you through eternity.
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.
This probably should be translated to better understanding the rate at which the vehicle burns oil per 1000km or so and adding sufficient oil to keep it just below the full mark.
There is merit to having the minimum amount oil in the sump as this will help the oil get to correct operating temperature quicker and help with the burn off of water and other byproducts.
A larger sump full of oil is the converse for short trips to help keep oil dilution at a minimum.
This OEM instruction sounds like its aimed more at the convenience of owners who don't like a opening a hood.
There some threads where BITOGers add half a quart or more above the full mark and are proud of it. I am not in favor of this.
Its only a vehicle its not a chariot to be used to take you through eternity.
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Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The first boneheaded thing you did was to top up the sump when it was only 1/4 qt down.
So what is wrong with keeping the oil in your engine at the top of the safe zone? Nothing boneheaded about that. I check all the fluids in my vehicles frequently and keep everything filled to the max. In the case of oil, the more the better up to the top of the safe zone. Now for all those on this forum that think it is OK to add oil above the safe zone, that would be a bonehead move.
I agree with you. Just because the dipstick says when it is one quart low does not mean you MUST, or should wait till it’s a full one quart low to add oil. I usually wait till about ½ quart and then top off. Since some smaller motors only hold 4.2 quarts, I am uncomfortable running as low as 3.2 quarts. I suppose the engineers planned for this but being a BTOGer makes us concerned.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The first boneheaded thing you did was to top up the sump when it was only 1/4 qt down.
So what is wrong with keeping the oil in your engine at the top of the safe zone? Nothing boneheaded about that. I check all the fluids in my vehicles frequently and keep everything filled to the max. In the case of oil, the more the better up to the top of the safe zone. Now for all those on this forum that think it is OK to add oil above the safe zone, that would be a bonehead move.
I agree with you. Just because the dipstick says when it is one quart low does not mean you MUST, or should wait till it’s a full one quart low to add oil. I usually wait till about ½ quart and then top off. Since some smaller motors only hold 4.2 quarts, I am uncomfortable running as low as 3.2 quarts. I suppose the engineers planned for this but being a BTOGer makes us concerned.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Quoting the OM of my old BMW:
Page 90
"Adding fresh engine oil
Adding too much oil serves no useful purpose and may even harm the engine.
Since this excess oil will tend to be burned off within a short time, it may create the impression that oil consumption is higher than normal.
The best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower mark on the dipstick.
However, do not allow the level to fall below the minimum-level mark."
I can tell you from experience that this car burns off the first half quart of a full sump more rapidly than it does the second.
Could be that BMW was onto something.
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.
this is NOT an issue of "too much' oil. He was adding up TO the full mark, not over it. How did this convo end up here at all?
Quoting the OM of my old BMW:
Page 90
"Adding fresh engine oil
Adding too much oil serves no useful purpose and may even harm the engine.
Since this excess oil will tend to be burned off within a short time, it may create the impression that oil consumption is higher than normal.
The best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower mark on the dipstick.
However, do not allow the level to fall below the minimum-level mark."
I can tell you from experience that this car burns off the first half quart of a full sump more rapidly than it does the second.
Could be that BMW was onto something.
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.
this is NOT an issue of "too much' oil. He was adding up TO the full mark, not over it. How did this convo end up here at all?
Some people are just reading the owners manual, and following it verbatim.
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
- What is your aversion to keeping the level near the top ?
- What damage is done by maintaining a 95% oil level ?
Perhaps the vehicle mentioned by the OP is known to have some consumption and he wanted to top it off before a long trip. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! It is common sense! There is no need for posters to insult the OP over it.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Some people are just reading the owners manual, and following it verbatim.
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
I have extensive knowledge of how a vehicle and its lubrication system works. I've also torn down and done many SBF builds along with a few SBC's (the whole hands-on experience aspect of this). I personally never stated that there is anything WRONG with obsessively topping up, simply that there is no benefit to doing so based on the data available and my own experience, nor is it something advocated by the manufacturers who simply suggest keeping it between the min and max lines.
I add oil when it gets down to the point where it needs oil added. When it is within the safe range as indicated on the dipstick, I don't. With the Expedition that means I usually never add oil over an OCI. Same goes with the Charger. With the BMW it means it gets one top-up during a typical interval.
Perhaps there is some merit to this frequent top-up practice for somebody who has a car that incessantly consumes, so they may be inclined to add oil before it hits the low mark because they know it is going to get there shortly. However, on a car that has normal consumption characteristics, which I feel my vehicles have, this often means that you check, but don't actually need to add anything during a typical interval.
This has the benefit of preventing you from having partially used bottles of oil kicking around all over the place; when I add oil to the M5, it takes the whole litre, and I then put another litre bottle in the trunk.
To reiterate, My stance is not that there is an issue with this practice, simply that it is unnecessary and hasn't been proven to provide any defined benefit over the process advocated by the OEM.
Some people are just reading the owners manual, and following it verbatim.
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
- What is your aversion to keeping the level near the top ?
- What damage is done by maintaining a 95% oil level ?
I have extensive knowledge of how a vehicle and its lubrication system works. I've also torn down and done many SBF builds along with a few SBC's (the whole hands-on experience aspect of this). I personally never stated that there is anything WRONG with obsessively topping up, simply that there is no benefit to doing so based on the data available and my own experience, nor is it something advocated by the manufacturers who simply suggest keeping it between the min and max lines.
I add oil when it gets down to the point where it needs oil added. When it is within the safe range as indicated on the dipstick, I don't. With the Expedition that means I usually never add oil over an OCI. Same goes with the Charger. With the BMW it means it gets one top-up during a typical interval.
Perhaps there is some merit to this frequent top-up practice for somebody who has a car that incessantly consumes, so they may be inclined to add oil before it hits the low mark because they know it is going to get there shortly. However, on a car that has normal consumption characteristics, which I feel my vehicles have, this often means that you check, but don't actually need to add anything during a typical interval.
This has the benefit of preventing you from having partially used bottles of oil kicking around all over the place; when I add oil to the M5, it takes the whole litre, and I then put another litre bottle in the trunk.
To reiterate, My stance is not that there is an issue with this practice, simply that it is unnecessary and hasn't been proven to provide any defined benefit over the process advocated by the OEM.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Carbon12
Perhaps the vehicle mentioned by the OP is known to have some consumption and he wanted to top it off before a long trip. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! It is common sense! There is no need for posters to insult the OP over it.
The OP topped up a vehicle with a 1/4 bottle of transmission fluid by accident and wanted to know if that was a problem. This later discussion about when and if to top up is a bit of a tangent from that question
Perhaps the vehicle mentioned by the OP is known to have some consumption and he wanted to top it off before a long trip. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! It is common sense! There is no need for posters to insult the OP over it.
The OP topped up a vehicle with a 1/4 bottle of transmission fluid by accident and wanted to know if that was a problem. This later discussion about when and if to top up is a bit of a tangent from that question
Anyone who actually understands an engine's lubrication system also understands that there's no advantage in keeping the sump topped off all of the time.
No damage is done unless the oil pump pickup actually sucks air, which would happen only when the oil level is well off the dipstick entirely and probably down to less than two quarts remaining.
OTOH, when so many of us ignore the OM for everything else, why not for this as well?
After all, what do Ford, BMW, Honda and Toyota know about engines as compared to the members here?
No damage is done unless the oil pump pickup actually sucks air, which would happen only when the oil level is well off the dipstick entirely and probably down to less than two quarts remaining.
OTOH, when so many of us ignore the OM for everything else, why not for this as well?
After all, what do Ford, BMW, Honda and Toyota know about engines as compared to the members here?
No additional wear will come from allowing the oil to get 1qt low. As many have said here there is a margin or error in dipsticks and they do not always read correct.
I always add the amount the manual says for an oil and filter change when i change the oil, rather than only use the dipstick as gospel.
My Silverado calls for 6qt's with a filter. When i do this it will show 1/4 qt overfilled on the stick. I always fill it with 6 as this is what GM recommends, when/if it gets to where it reads 1/2 qt low on the stick i know it is about 3/4 qt low so i add about 1/2 a qt. Dipsticks can vary by a 1/2qt or so on some vehicles.
In the case of my 2008 5.3L silverado, it is not uncommon for different people to get diff readings when adding the same 6 qts during and OCI. The dipstick is simply a guide.
after i change it i don't keep it topped up to the max if it needs some. i generally keep it about 1/4 qt from the max, or slightly below the max.
On a high performance car that im going to thrash on, i will keep it at the max, because at high RPM i want there to be plenty in the sump. Even GM recommends to add Extra oil to corvettes if you are tracking them to ensure that the engine wont ever starve for oil at high RPM
The point here is everyone is right. IMO anywhere from 1qt low to 1/2 qt high is likely perfectly fine in most Autos.
To the OP it would be ok with a little ATF in the oil. It isn't ideal, but it wont really hurt anything being such a small amount. Before i knew better i had a friend tell me to run a qt of ATF in my oil to clean out my engine. his dad who was a mechanic used to do it so i trusted him. Long story short i ran 1 qt atf and 4qts of motor oil for 5k miles and nothing ever happened. That was a few years before i found BITOG and realized that was not the brightest idea. It however didn't hurt the vehicle. it is still running to this day. I see it from time to time.
I always add the amount the manual says for an oil and filter change when i change the oil, rather than only use the dipstick as gospel.
My Silverado calls for 6qt's with a filter. When i do this it will show 1/4 qt overfilled on the stick. I always fill it with 6 as this is what GM recommends, when/if it gets to where it reads 1/2 qt low on the stick i know it is about 3/4 qt low so i add about 1/2 a qt. Dipsticks can vary by a 1/2qt or so on some vehicles.
In the case of my 2008 5.3L silverado, it is not uncommon for different people to get diff readings when adding the same 6 qts during and OCI. The dipstick is simply a guide.
after i change it i don't keep it topped up to the max if it needs some. i generally keep it about 1/4 qt from the max, or slightly below the max.
On a high performance car that im going to thrash on, i will keep it at the max, because at high RPM i want there to be plenty in the sump. Even GM recommends to add Extra oil to corvettes if you are tracking them to ensure that the engine wont ever starve for oil at high RPM
The point here is everyone is right. IMO anywhere from 1qt low to 1/2 qt high is likely perfectly fine in most Autos.
To the OP it would be ok with a little ATF in the oil. It isn't ideal, but it wont really hurt anything being such a small amount. Before i knew better i had a friend tell me to run a qt of ATF in my oil to clean out my engine. his dad who was a mechanic used to do it so i trusted him. Long story short i ran 1 qt atf and 4qts of motor oil for 5k miles and nothing ever happened. That was a few years before i found BITOG and realized that was not the brightest idea. It however didn't hurt the vehicle. it is still running to this day. I see it from time to time.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Some people are just reading the owners manual, and following it verbatim.
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
I have extensive knowledge of how a vehicle and its lubrication system works. I've also torn down and done many SBF builds along with a few SBC's (the whole hands-on experience aspect of this). I personally never stated that there is anything WRONG with obsessively topping up, simply that there is no benefit to doing so based on the data available and my own experience, nor is it something advocated by the manufacturers who simply suggest keeping it between the min and max lines.
I add oil when it gets down to the point where it needs oil added. When it is within the safe range as indicated on the dipstick, I don't. With the Expedition that means I usually never add oil over an OCI. Same goes with the Charger. With the BMW it means it gets one top-up during a typical interval.
Perhaps there is some merit to this frequent top-up practice for somebody who has a car that incessantly consumes, so they may be inclined to add oil before it hits the low mark because they know it is going to get there shortly. However, on a car that has normal consumption characteristics, which I feel my vehicles have, this often means that you check, but don't actually need to add anything during a typical interval.
This has the benefit of preventing you from having partially used bottles of oil kicking around all over the place; when I add oil to the M5, it takes the whole litre, and I then put another litre bottle in the trunk.
To reiterate, My stance is not that there is an issue with this practice, simply that it is unnecessary and hasn't been proven to provide any defined benefit over the process advocated by the OEM.
by some of the logic I have seen here, if I wanted to be really cheap, I would do my oil changes and fill it to just 1/4 quart above the bottom of the low range on my dipstick, then just keep it there thru the OCI. At the end, I would save 3/4 quart on every change. The flaw in the thinking is, I am then running about 18% low on my oil ALL the time. Therefore, would I not then have to reduce my OCI by 18%? In effect, keeping the sump full, especially topping off an oil burner should allow for longer OCI's, right?
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Some people are just reading the owners manual, and following it verbatim.
Others who understand how a vehicle and it's lubrication system works, will know there is nothing wrong with keeping your oil near the top of the safe range on the dipstick.
To the people who follow the owners manual verbatim:
- What is your aversion to keeping the level near the top ?
- What damage is done by maintaining a 95% oil level ?
I have extensive knowledge of how a vehicle and its lubrication system works. I've also torn down and done many SBF builds along with a few SBC's (the whole hands-on experience aspect of this). I personally never stated that there is anything WRONG with obsessively topping up, simply that there is no benefit to doing so based on the data available and my own experience, nor is it something advocated by the manufacturers who simply suggest keeping it between the min and max lines.
I add oil when it gets down to the point where it needs oil added. When it is within the safe range as indicated on the dipstick, I don't. With the Expedition that means I usually never add oil over an OCI. Same goes with the Charger. With the BMW it means it gets one top-up during a typical interval.
Perhaps there is some merit to this frequent top-up practice for somebody who has a car that incessantly consumes, so they may be inclined to add oil before it hits the low mark because they know it is going to get there shortly. However, on a car that has normal consumption characteristics, which I feel my vehicles have, this often means that you check, but don't actually need to add anything during a typical interval.
This has the benefit of preventing you from having partially used bottles of oil kicking around all over the place; when I add oil to the M5, it takes the whole litre, and I then put another litre bottle in the trunk.
To reiterate, My stance is not that there is an issue with this practice, simply that it is unnecessary and hasn't been proven to provide any defined benefit over the process advocated by the OEM.
by some of the logic I have seen here, if I wanted to be really cheap, I would do my oil changes and fill it to just 1/4 quart above the bottom of the low range on my dipstick, then just keep it there thru the OCI. At the end, I would save 3/4 quart on every change. The flaw in the thinking is, I am then running about 18% low on my oil ALL the time. Therefore, would I not then have to reduce my OCI by 18%? In effect, keeping the sump full, especially topping off an oil burner should allow for longer OCI's, right?
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Originally Posted By: philipp10
by some of the logic I have seen here, if I wanted to be really cheap, I would do my oil changes and fill it to just 1/4 quart above the bottom of the low range on my dipstick, then just keep it there thru the OCI. At the end, I would save 3/4 quart on every change. The flaw in the thinking is, I am then running about 18% low on my oil ALL the time. Therefore, would I not then have to reduce my OCI by 18%? In effect, keeping the sump full, especially topping off an oil burner should allow for longer OCI's, right?
That's an interesting theory but a few things:
1. The manufacturer specifies an initial fill capacity when you do an oil change. And then advises you ensure that the level is above the low mark or you add oil when you reach the low mark or you maintain the oil level between the marks depending on the verbiage in the manual. This is in-line with the discussion so far. Nobody has advocated a lower capacity initial fill in an attempt to save money, though it is a process used in some drag racing efforts (a quart low) to reduce windage and wring every last pony out of an engine. Of course that's not about saving money or oil though.
2. Most people don't do UOA's so they don't know how long they can safely run whatever oil they've chosen in the first place. So your 18% is 18% of a number that has no actual reference point.
3. Engine A and Engine B both the same make and model of engine in the same make and model of car can have very different consumption rates. If engine A consumes 2L per 8,000Km and engine B consumes 1L per 8,000Km then engine B should run a shorter OCI based on your logic here. But of course we know that's not the case. Oil consumption is what it is on a new engine and the recommended OCI is either a set mileage or follows an OLM, something that doesn't factor oil level into the equation (unless perhaps it is a new BMW that has the electronic oil level sensor).
4. Chronic oil burning engines are usually the least healthy; they have blow by and are constantly contaminating the oil with fuel and combustion byproducts negating at least some of the benefit of the frequent top-ups you are doing. As I noted in one of my earlier posts, the healthiest engines I've owned consume little to no oil between change intervals and analysis has shown that, despite the lack of top ups, that the lubricant is fit for continued use when I've changed it. Which brings us back to point 1.
5. In-line with your cost point, some engines are inclined to sip a bit of oil when it is at the max mark on the dipstick but once it gets down 1/2 a quart or so, the consumption slows significantly or stops (I believe an individual mentioned one of their cars does that in this thread, and that is not the first time I've heard it). This may be due to windage, sump design...etc. It doesn't really matter the cause, the point is that it happens. Now, if that person is inclined to keep the oil AT the full mark, and obsessively checks it, then they are going to be doing more frequent top-ups, using more oil, and subsequently costing themselves more money. If, on the other hand they were to let it get that 1/2 quart low and it stabilizes there and stays there for the OCI, that is a cost savings.
My whole point here is that the OEM will advocate a particular process. Many will follow that process. Some, who are perhaps more inclined to doing things their way, will not follow that process and ultimately end up no further ahead than those that do. If it makes them feel better, that's great. I'm not condemning the practice, but I see no tangible benefit over what the OEM advocates. What I do see is one detractor and that is that the more frequently you open that oil cap to top up, the higher the risk of introducing contaminants into the sump. I'm sure we are all quite anal about adding oil out of the wind, wiping off all the surfaces before we do....etc. But like with opening an intake tract, no matter how careful we are, some foreign debris is going to enter. Is it significant? Probably not. But something to consider
by some of the logic I have seen here, if I wanted to be really cheap, I would do my oil changes and fill it to just 1/4 quart above the bottom of the low range on my dipstick, then just keep it there thru the OCI. At the end, I would save 3/4 quart on every change. The flaw in the thinking is, I am then running about 18% low on my oil ALL the time. Therefore, would I not then have to reduce my OCI by 18%? In effect, keeping the sump full, especially topping off an oil burner should allow for longer OCI's, right?
That's an interesting theory but a few things:
1. The manufacturer specifies an initial fill capacity when you do an oil change. And then advises you ensure that the level is above the low mark or you add oil when you reach the low mark or you maintain the oil level between the marks depending on the verbiage in the manual. This is in-line with the discussion so far. Nobody has advocated a lower capacity initial fill in an attempt to save money, though it is a process used in some drag racing efforts (a quart low) to reduce windage and wring every last pony out of an engine. Of course that's not about saving money or oil though.
2. Most people don't do UOA's so they don't know how long they can safely run whatever oil they've chosen in the first place. So your 18% is 18% of a number that has no actual reference point.
3. Engine A and Engine B both the same make and model of engine in the same make and model of car can have very different consumption rates. If engine A consumes 2L per 8,000Km and engine B consumes 1L per 8,000Km then engine B should run a shorter OCI based on your logic here. But of course we know that's not the case. Oil consumption is what it is on a new engine and the recommended OCI is either a set mileage or follows an OLM, something that doesn't factor oil level into the equation (unless perhaps it is a new BMW that has the electronic oil level sensor).
4. Chronic oil burning engines are usually the least healthy; they have blow by and are constantly contaminating the oil with fuel and combustion byproducts negating at least some of the benefit of the frequent top-ups you are doing. As I noted in one of my earlier posts, the healthiest engines I've owned consume little to no oil between change intervals and analysis has shown that, despite the lack of top ups, that the lubricant is fit for continued use when I've changed it. Which brings us back to point 1.
5. In-line with your cost point, some engines are inclined to sip a bit of oil when it is at the max mark on the dipstick but once it gets down 1/2 a quart or so, the consumption slows significantly or stops (I believe an individual mentioned one of their cars does that in this thread, and that is not the first time I've heard it). This may be due to windage, sump design...etc. It doesn't really matter the cause, the point is that it happens. Now, if that person is inclined to keep the oil AT the full mark, and obsessively checks it, then they are going to be doing more frequent top-ups, using more oil, and subsequently costing themselves more money. If, on the other hand they were to let it get that 1/2 quart low and it stabilizes there and stays there for the OCI, that is a cost savings.
My whole point here is that the OEM will advocate a particular process. Many will follow that process. Some, who are perhaps more inclined to doing things their way, will not follow that process and ultimately end up no further ahead than those that do. If it makes them feel better, that's great. I'm not condemning the practice, but I see no tangible benefit over what the OEM advocates. What I do see is one detractor and that is that the more frequently you open that oil cap to top up, the higher the risk of introducing contaminants into the sump. I'm sure we are all quite anal about adding oil out of the wind, wiping off all the surfaces before we do....etc. But like with opening an intake tract, no matter how careful we are, some foreign debris is going to enter. Is it significant? Probably not. But something to consider
One of the jobs of motor oil is to dissipate heat and transfer it from high heat areas to lower heat areas. This is why I don't wait to add oil till its a full quart low. Simple physics says it's harder for less oil to hold heat and transfer it effectively. More oil means more heat holding and transferring capacity.
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Originally Posted By: deven
One of the jobs of motor oil is to dissipate heat and transfer it from high heat areas to lower heat areas. This is why I don't wait to add oil till its a full quart low. Simple physics says it's harder for less oil to hold heat and transfer it effectively. More oil means more heat holding and transferring capacity.
This is true. But given how slow oil temperature is to rise relative to coolant on a car that lacks a heat exchanger, I think we might put a bit too much emphasis on that.
Also, compare the sump sizes on some cars to others. Is there a marked longevity advantage a Toyota with a 4 quart sump lacks when compared to a Benz with an 8 quart sump? From what I've seen, the answer to that question is no.
And then we have thermostatic controlled cooling/warming systems (heat exchangers) for the oil on certain vehicles.
It's a very interesting topic BTW, I'm enjoying discussing it.
One of the jobs of motor oil is to dissipate heat and transfer it from high heat areas to lower heat areas. This is why I don't wait to add oil till its a full quart low. Simple physics says it's harder for less oil to hold heat and transfer it effectively. More oil means more heat holding and transferring capacity.
This is true. But given how slow oil temperature is to rise relative to coolant on a car that lacks a heat exchanger, I think we might put a bit too much emphasis on that.
Also, compare the sump sizes on some cars to others. Is there a marked longevity advantage a Toyota with a 4 quart sump lacks when compared to a Benz with an 8 quart sump? From what I've seen, the answer to that question is no.
And then we have thermostatic controlled cooling/warming systems (heat exchangers) for the oil on certain vehicles.
It's a very interesting topic BTW, I'm enjoying discussing it.
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