Originally Posted By: whip
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
NASCAR emissions
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Originally Posted By: nolesfan
I don't hate NASCAR or the technologies it uses (though I find the racing boring), but for racing and tech applications I much prefer sportscar racing. I'm not too excited about the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS, but to me the technologies and racing is far superior and much more exciting. Besides the prototype classes, the rest of the cars are bought from dealers and then race prepped, very different from ground up race builds (like NASCAR's various series). I personally like the fact that this racing is the R&D for future street applications. Different hybrid systems, diesels, DI turbo, NA V8, etc. All different approaches to a common goal of speed, efficiency and reliability. All things that would be great to see NASCAR embrace.
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
I don't hate NASCAR or the technologies it uses (though I find the racing boring), but for racing and tech applications I much prefer sportscar racing. I'm not too excited about the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS, but to me the technologies and racing is far superior and much more exciting. Besides the prototype classes, the rest of the cars are bought from dealers and then race prepped, very different from ground up race builds (like NASCAR's various series). I personally like the fact that this racing is the R&D for future street applications. Different hybrid systems, diesels, DI turbo, NA V8, etc. All different approaches to a common goal of speed, efficiency and reliability. All things that would be great to see NASCAR embrace.
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
Yup, Ford sells turn key racecars through the FRPP catalog, same with Chevy and the GMPP catalog.
As far as racecars not matching their profuction versions, look at the Japan Super GT series. There was a race this past weekend and there was a Prius with a body kit that make it look nothing like a Prius. There was a Toyota 86 and a Subaru BRZ, one used a factory body, the other used a tube frame. There was a Lotus Evora and the only Lotus factory part on it was the badge. The racing was great though.
I think the series that does the best at keeping the balance between racing car and production car is the Australian V8 Supercars. The cars are instantly recognizable as a Falcon, Commodore, Mercedes, Altima or S60. Not sure if I like their future plan to not require a 5.0L V8 and allow 2 doors, but the racing was awesome.
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
Yup, Ford sells turn key racecars through the FRPP catalog, same with Chevy and the GMPP catalog.
As far as racecars not matching their profuction versions, look at the Japan Super GT series. There was a race this past weekend and there was a Prius with a body kit that make it look nothing like a Prius. There was a Toyota 86 and a Subaru BRZ, one used a factory body, the other used a tube frame. There was a Lotus Evora and the only Lotus factory part on it was the badge. The racing was great though.
I think the series that does the best at keeping the balance between racing car and production car is the Australian V8 Supercars. The cars are instantly recognizable as a Falcon, Commodore, Mercedes, Altima or S60. Not sure if I like their future plan to not require a 5.0L V8 and allow 2 doors, but the racing was awesome.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: whip
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
They built pushrod, V8, Hemi engines for their Century limousines, from '63-'98.
Originally Posted By: whip
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
They built pushrod, V8, Hemi engines for their Century limousines, from '63-'98.
Were they ever available in any of their showroom production automobiles?
I enjoyed NASCAR back in the day when they were truly "Stock Cars". Something that you could go and actually buy off the showroom floor. After all, that is where they got the term, "Win on Sunday, and sell on Monday". Today it represents nothing of the sort. Tubular chassis, dry sump, high rpm racing engines, restrictor plates, aero flaps, and all the rest, has taken the sport into an area the automobile consumer can no longer relate to.
And the funny part is all of this has done nothing to increase performance. Bobby Isaac lapped Talladega over 200 MPH back in 1969, in a wet sump factory produced 426 HEMI. Sure, both the car, engine, and suspension had been gone through and beefed up. But it represented a relationship to the racing enthusiast to something he could actually go out and buy. You could see the Aluminum plate they bolted to the dash, to cover up the hole left by the AM radio.
I get the whole part about safety, and all of that. But it must be realized when Bill France built Talladega, he built it with 200+ MPH speeds in mind. That was where the sport was headed, and that was the direction the fans wanted it to go. They were on the right track when Bill Elliot lapped at 212 MPH back in the 80's. (That record still stands, and most likely will for years to come). At least the tubular chassis, and all the rest got the speeds up. But now every time the race engineers find some speed, NASCAR, in their infinite wisdom, find a way to take it away from them.
We watch cars run around in a pack, bumping and pushing one another, because none of them can get away from each other. NASCAR is no longer "racing". It has been transformed into an "event". Much like the WWF, or WWE, or whatever they call themselves these days. It's a place where guys go to get drunk, see a good wreck, (which is all but guaranteed at the Super Speedways), and eyeball girls in halter tops and short pants. I'm not saying there is anything "wrong" with any of this. Just don't tell me it's racing. It's a Sunday show. A bit better than the strip mall carnival, or the local rodeo, but a show none the less.
And the funny part is all of this has done nothing to increase performance. Bobby Isaac lapped Talladega over 200 MPH back in 1969, in a wet sump factory produced 426 HEMI. Sure, both the car, engine, and suspension had been gone through and beefed up. But it represented a relationship to the racing enthusiast to something he could actually go out and buy. You could see the Aluminum plate they bolted to the dash, to cover up the hole left by the AM radio.
I get the whole part about safety, and all of that. But it must be realized when Bill France built Talladega, he built it with 200+ MPH speeds in mind. That was where the sport was headed, and that was the direction the fans wanted it to go. They were on the right track when Bill Elliot lapped at 212 MPH back in the 80's. (That record still stands, and most likely will for years to come). At least the tubular chassis, and all the rest got the speeds up. But now every time the race engineers find some speed, NASCAR, in their infinite wisdom, find a way to take it away from them.
We watch cars run around in a pack, bumping and pushing one another, because none of them can get away from each other. NASCAR is no longer "racing". It has been transformed into an "event". Much like the WWF, or WWE, or whatever they call themselves these days. It's a place where guys go to get drunk, see a good wreck, (which is all but guaranteed at the Super Speedways), and eyeball girls in halter tops and short pants. I'm not saying there is anything "wrong" with any of this. Just don't tell me it's racing. It's a Sunday show. A bit better than the strip mall carnival, or the local rodeo, but a show none the less.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: whip
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
Originally Posted By: whip
Why doesn't Toyota belong?
When did Toyota ever build a pushrod V-8?
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
My point is NASCAR is based on single cam, pushrod V-8 engines. It's all they've ever allowed. Ford has produced millions of them ever since the days of Bonnie & Clyde, and continue to do so to this day in their factory vehicles. So has Chevy and Mopar. Toyota has not. But no matter, NASCAR relates to factory vehicles today about as much as Top Fuel Funny Cars in the NHRA.
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
My point is NASCAR is based on single cam, pushrod V-8 engines. It's all they've ever allowed. Ford has produced millions of them ever since the days of Bonnie & Clyde, and continue to do so to this day in their factory vehicles. So has Chevy and Mopar. Toyota has not. But no matter, NASCAR relates to factory vehicles today about as much as Top Fuel Funny Cars in the NHRA.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Were they ever available in any of their showroom production automobiles?
Yes, the Century was and is a production automobile. Although it is mainly sold in Japan.
Since the pushrod, Hemi head V8 was phased out, the Century has used a DOHC V12.
Were they ever available in any of their showroom production automobiles?
Yes, the Century was and is a production automobile. Although it is mainly sold in Japan.
Since the pushrod, Hemi head V8 was phased out, the Century has used a DOHC V12.
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Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
My point is NASCAR is based on single cam, pushrod V-8 engines. It's all they've ever allowed. Ford has produced millions of them ever since the days of Bonnie & Clyde, and continue to do so to this day in their factory vehicles. So has Chevy and Mopar. Toyota has not. But no matter, NASCAR relates to factory vehicles today about as much as Top Fuel Funny Cars in the NHRA.
And what connection do those engines have with the NASCAR custom built engines? The Toyota engine is no more, no less custom that the others, regardless of how many blocks with 8 holes the others built. Ford built an overhead cam engine to power NASCAR vehicles and wasn't allowed to run it.
Toyota wouldn't have been able to run one either. GM was building fuel injected V8s in the late 60s for street use and wasn't allowed to run those either. I could go on.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
When did Ford build a rear drive Taurus?
My point is NASCAR is based on single cam, pushrod V-8 engines. It's all they've ever allowed. Ford has produced millions of them ever since the days of Bonnie & Clyde, and continue to do so to this day in their factory vehicles. So has Chevy and Mopar. Toyota has not. But no matter, NASCAR relates to factory vehicles today about as much as Top Fuel Funny Cars in the NHRA.
And what connection do those engines have with the NASCAR custom built engines? The Toyota engine is no more, no less custom that the others, regardless of how many blocks with 8 holes the others built. Ford built an overhead cam engine to power NASCAR vehicles and wasn't allowed to run it.
Toyota wouldn't have been able to run one either. GM was building fuel injected V8s in the late 60s for street use and wasn't allowed to run those either. I could go on.
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
And what connection do those engines have with the NASCAR custom built engines?
Today, sadly none.
And what connection do those engines have with the NASCAR custom built engines?
Today, sadly none.
Originally Posted By: billt460
I enjoyed NASCAR back in the day when they were truly "Stock Cars". Something that you could go and actually buy off the showroom floor......... Just don't tell me it's racing. It's a Sunday show. A bit better than the strip mall carnival, or the local rodeo, but a show none the less.
I'm curious, what would you like to see on the track? What would you change to make it better?
I enjoyed NASCAR back in the day when they were truly "Stock Cars". Something that you could go and actually buy off the showroom floor......... Just don't tell me it's racing. It's a Sunday show. A bit better than the strip mall carnival, or the local rodeo, but a show none the less.
I'm curious, what would you like to see on the track? What would you change to make it better?
Originally Posted By: whip
I'm curious, what would you like to see on the track? What would you change to make it better?
First and foremost, get rid of restrictor plates. It has proven to be far more dangerous to both the drivers and the fans, having these cars all bunched up, not being able to get out of each others way. It makes the "racing" silly and ridiculous. It is no longer the best driver with the best car who wins. It's who gets lucky enough to get the draft, or gets into the fastest "line" of pushers.
Every time they have a "big one" at the Super Speedways, (which now is every race), these cars are just begging to start flying. If they're that worried about safety, they are going to have to improve all the catch fences around the Super Speedways. Sooner or later, aero flaps or no, one of these cars is going to get loose in the stands. It has already almost happened several times. When it does they are going to lose hundreds, and it will be the biggest disaster to ever hit motor racing in this country. It's simply a dark moment just waiting to occur. Just like Earnhardt driving with a 3/4 helmet and no HANS Device. It's only a matter of time.
By building up the catch fences higher and far more stronger, and getting rid of the restrictor plates, it will minimize this threat. Yes, the cars will be faster, but they will string out, and you take these 15 car pile ups out of the equation. That increases safety far more than the increased speeds that would result from more horsepower by removing the plates. Not to mention it will make the racing far better and safer for both the fans AND the drivers.
I'm curious, what would you like to see on the track? What would you change to make it better?
First and foremost, get rid of restrictor plates. It has proven to be far more dangerous to both the drivers and the fans, having these cars all bunched up, not being able to get out of each others way. It makes the "racing" silly and ridiculous. It is no longer the best driver with the best car who wins. It's who gets lucky enough to get the draft, or gets into the fastest "line" of pushers.
Every time they have a "big one" at the Super Speedways, (which now is every race), these cars are just begging to start flying. If they're that worried about safety, they are going to have to improve all the catch fences around the Super Speedways. Sooner or later, aero flaps or no, one of these cars is going to get loose in the stands. It has already almost happened several times. When it does they are going to lose hundreds, and it will be the biggest disaster to ever hit motor racing in this country. It's simply a dark moment just waiting to occur. Just like Earnhardt driving with a 3/4 helmet and no HANS Device. It's only a matter of time.
By building up the catch fences higher and far more stronger, and getting rid of the restrictor plates, it will minimize this threat. Yes, the cars will be faster, but they will string out, and you take these 15 car pile ups out of the equation. That increases safety far more than the increased speeds that would result from more horsepower by removing the plates. Not to mention it will make the racing far better and safer for both the fans AND the drivers.
Racing everywhere has gotten out of hand at all levels. I just want to go out and run my old vette on a road course and have fun. But you have all these guys trailering in built up cars with all kinds of mods and expensive racing slicks. They basically want to run off all the guys like me that spend nothing running a moderately priced completely stock car because we're holding them up.
That forces guys like me back to driving fast on the street to get our jollies.
That forces guys like me back to driving fast on the street to get our jollies.
The old Cam Am unlimited series was the last real racing.
The old Cam Am unlimited series was the last real racing.
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: nolesfan
I don't hate NASCAR or the technologies it uses (though I find the racing boring), but for racing and tech applications I much prefer sportscar racing. I'm not too excited about the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS, but to me the technologies and racing is far superior and much more exciting. Besides the prototype classes, the rest of the cars are bought from dealers and then race prepped, very different from ground up race builds (like NASCAR's various series). I personally like the fact that this racing is the R&D for future street applications. Different hybrid systems, diesels, DI turbo, NA V8, etc. All different approaches to a common goal of speed, efficiency and reliability. All things that would be great to see NASCAR embrace.
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
That just goes to prove what I mentioned... Sportscar racing (in general) seems to have a much more connected relationship with production cars, some classes are very much factory supported (Porsche, Corvette, etc.).
Originally Posted By: nolesfan
I don't hate NASCAR or the technologies it uses (though I find the racing boring), but for racing and tech applications I much prefer sportscar racing. I'm not too excited about the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS, but to me the technologies and racing is far superior and much more exciting. Besides the prototype classes, the rest of the cars are bought from dealers and then race prepped, very different from ground up race builds (like NASCAR's various series). I personally like the fact that this racing is the R&D for future street applications. Different hybrid systems, diesels, DI turbo, NA V8, etc. All different approaches to a common goal of speed, efficiency and reliability. All things that would be great to see NASCAR embrace.
Some of the OEM's sell race prepped versions of their production cars. BMW is an example with their M3 GTS, M4, and M235.
That just goes to prove what I mentioned... Sportscar racing (in general) seems to have a much more connected relationship with production cars, some classes are very much factory supported (Porsche, Corvette, etc.).
Back when Nascar was racing cars which were "close" to stock the factories would sell "bodies in white" (just the sheet metal) to racing teams. Now even that would be a joke.
I wonder when Jeep is getting into NASCAR? I'm ready for a 200 MPH Grand Cherokee. Imagine that thing getting sideways and rolling across the infield!
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Back when Nascar was racing cars which were "close" to stock the factories would sell "bodies in white" (just the sheet metal) to racing teams. Now even that would be a joke.
Ford and GM still sell those. Although not it is more geared towards road racing and drag racing.
Back when Nascar was racing cars which were "close" to stock the factories would sell "bodies in white" (just the sheet metal) to racing teams. Now even that would be a joke.
Ford and GM still sell those. Although not it is more geared towards road racing and drag racing.
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