Italian tune-up and oil temperatures.

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We must have different understandings of the term you use in the thread title.
To me, an Italian tune-up involves a few WOT runs to redline through the gears, not continuous operation in a low gear.


I was thinking it was add your favorite fuel system cleaner and drive for 20+ minutes at 4500+ rpms. Or it that a German tune-up? I get them mixed up. lol

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: stickybuns

Are you 8 years old? Your obsession with sockpuppets is weird. And Shamwow's use of the childish bickering 'ditto heads', his words, puts him in the same category. Teenage girls are more mature than Shamwow. Oh well, he backs a good shammy:

Please, you are doing a wonderful job of trying to derail this thread which actually is one of the more interesting threads in the PCMO section in a long time (certainly a heck of a lot better than "what oil should I run in my Camry"). If you have nothing of substance to contribute and would rather attempt to berate the OP, please start your own thread with that intention in General and OT and have at it.

Shannow's comment, which you latched onto and started this whole debacle, was an innocent remark made in good humour for those familiar with his history on this board and his relationship regarding moderation with respect to viscosity recommendations. In doing so, he has, in the past, been labelled a "thick head" and other terms. His residence in Aus also plays into that, as of course they are known to supposedly run 20w-50 in everything and have 60 and 70 weight oils as well that are readily available. It is all part of a much larger community relationship that exists on this board that members that have been here a while are familiar with. This is one of the common "fun themes" and it is all in good humour.

 

[IndyIan]

Back OT.
So it seems that it takes a few more hp (3-4?) to push even 100C oil around the engine at 4k rpm than at 2k rpm?
Is it possible to calculate the percentage difference in heat energy from your data? If we assume everything was equal except the engine rpm on your two runs?

 

[riggaz]

It does work on engines that suffer from this particular problem which is usually older petrol engines and most diesel engines. I think it's the speed of the exhaust gases that dislodge the carbon deposits as well, diesels need a good rinse out every now and again because they coke up even worse!

 

[riggaz]

What's the obsession in OZ about high viscosity oils (you are obviously excluded), obviously it gets hot but even so, I've never seen any engine builder spec an SAE70 at any ambient temp.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We must have different understandings of the term you use in the thread title.
To me, an Italian tune-up involves a few WOT runs to redline through the gears, not continuous operation in a low gear.


I was thinking it was add your favorite fuel system cleaner and drive for 20+ minutes at 4500+ rpms. Or it that a German tune-up? I get them mixed up. lol


I was "forced" to perform a couple of Italian tune-ups on my German car this morning.
Redlining a couple of gears sure is fun!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Back OT.
So it seems that it takes a few more hp (3-4?) to push even 100C oil around the engine at 4k rpm than at 2k rpm?
Is it possible to calculate the percentage difference in heat energy from your data? If we assume everything was equal except the engine rpm on your two runs?


The change in pumping resistance is next to negligible. Even if the oil pressure is increased by 20psi, it's less power than a low beam headlight...maybe enough to keep home brew from dropping below yeast activation temp, but not enough for the oil temps.

As boundarylayer correctly asserted, the temperature comes from the increase in work done against the oil within the journals...but as we don't know where the designers put each of the bearings on the design curves, it's a little harder to predict.

If you go to
http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/c9_3.htm

Plug in some typical bearing dimensions, and change the speed from 2,000 to 4,000, you can see that heating (work) is increased by around a factor of 4...so presumably by running the same load (speed, route, just gear changes), that's commensurate with what the increased heating is.

Throw in viscosity, and see what sort of differences are made...still there, still savings. Just remember to use your estimation of what the high shear viscosity at bulk oil temps plus 10-15C to simulate the actual bearing viscosity.

I really need a 70cm long thermoprobe to replace the dipstick.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I was "forced" to perform a couple of Italian tune-ups on my German car this morning.
Redlining a couple of gears sure is fun!


Yep, my old E30, I used to drive the long way home so that I could "tune it" up through to the end of 3rd, coming onto a highway bridge with an impenetrable row of trees....3rd was enough to earn a 3 month break from driving if it was anywhere that you could get caught.

Caprice still pulls the same terminal speed, but auto, and 4,500 gear changes aren't nearly as much fun.

 

[fdcg27]

One of the joys of driving a stick is a WOT throttle run through a few gears shifting at redline.
6500 revs in third in my four cylinder e36 would earn me a healthy fine.
Redline in fourth would be a more serious matter.

 

[Shannow]

 

[Shannow]

Changed the oil to the rest of the HX5 for a week and a bit (use it up, the varnish test not showing anything). Highest I could get on that oil was 119C.

Have a week of having the Castrol Magnatec 5W30 fuel economy installed, same model Fram filter.
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C10774_Magnatec%20Fuel%20Saver%205W-30_467501_2013_04.pdf

Don't know what the HTHS of the Helix HX5 15W40 that I changed out is (guessing low to mid 4s), sot there's a significant reduction of High Shear Viscosity.

Highest on this oil is 119C also, but 106C was seen after 25 miles of highway, normal use in D. My regular commute is within 3 degrees of what was measured on the 15W40.

It looked initially like I've picked up 1MPG (4%), see how that plays out...as we all know, mileage isrpetty variable, but I settled on the same fuel some weeks ago, and timed the OCIs so I've still got a month of winter for consistency.

More observations have me questioning where a "proper" oil temperature gauge should be measuring.

Being that I put the thermocouple right where the dipstick is, and it's directly under the oil that is raining back from the working parts, I've run the T/C to the bottom of the sump to get a rough temperature profile.

There's 12-15C difference between the oil temperature that's entering the sump, in the full/low range than the bit near the sump wall (big alloy winged thing).

Procedure was to pull off the highway, kill the ignition, and coast to a stop, leapout and test for temp and last two days profile...hopefully not enough time for a serious convetive cooling to have started.

Have an IR thermometer on the way, and am still chasing a thermoprobe that I can replace the dipstick with.

But has me wondering more...where is everyone's "proper" oil temperature gauges installed ?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3462602#Post3462602

 

[A_Harman]

My Corvette's oil temp sensor is in the main oil gallery after the oil filter. I don't have a sensor in the pan.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
My Corvette's oil temp sensor is in the main oil gallery after the oil filter. I don't have a sensor in the pan.


Have had a few people suggest similar locations...

With the V-6, the dipstick full/add location is smack bang where the oil raining off the crank bearings is mixed with the lifter/valve runback (which would have to be at approximately coolant temperature running down the valley)...and before it reaches the sump walls, and loses heat on it's way back to the pick-up.

My commute is now 25km each way (highway), and temps over 105C in that location are "normal".

30km, at highway speeds, 22C is netting me 114C...big ends are almost certainly in the HTHS 150C range for exit temperature. Sump temperature, at the same level was 94C with the IR gun

 

[cp3]

On the Pentastar the temp sensor is on the outlet side of the filter/cooler assembly, as is the pressure sensor. This assembly is in the V of the block and oil then returns directly to the main gallery. So I get no indication of return or sump temperature. I do have an IR gun, I will try to remember to take a look at the difference some day.

 

[Shannow]

Weather's warming up (26C this afternoon)

Did the 4,000RPM in drive for the same period as before, but with 11km more warm-up time from the initial tests.

To say I was shocked was an understatement...134C on the thermocouple, and 109 sump surface temperature...all on the highway from a cold start, not exceeding 100km/h, and nothing full throttle anywehre.

 

[Clevy]

So Shannow

Is that 134c the temp of the oil raining off the bearings?
And is 109c sump oil temp?

If yes on both I'm very surprised that the oil temps are that high.

Thanks for this thread. Very interesting.

 

[Shannow]

Clevy,
the 109 is the (alloy) surface of the sump, with an IR gun.

The 134 is the measured temperature with a type K thermocouple midway between the full and add mark of the dipstick. It's got the oil that has left the mains and big-ends, plus the stuff running down the (cooled) lifter valley from the top end.

The stuff leaving the big ends is easily in the 145-150 range.

This is with a 3.2cst HTHS 5W30 ILSAC oil...

 

[Shannow]

Found a pic of the sump this evening

dipstick location is the notch mid top rail in the top photo. Pick-up location opposite, so they are close.

Can see why the heat gun on the "hammerhead" area under-reads by 10s of degrees.

edit : the hammerhead section is front, on a longitudinal V-6 (L67).