Looking for a good tire balance

[GerGa]

Hi,
I am looking to get some Cooper CS5's on my 2004 Buick Lesabre, and am trying to get them at a place that will do a quality tire mount/balance. I have only used one tire shop in my life(on my past two cars), and they are ok but I always had vibrations at highway speeds. They also use one of those package deals with another company for the alignment only, so I don't trust their alignments as much as I'd like.

I have read a lot on the internet that a hunter road force balancer machine is great.

So I found one tire shop with a hunter GSP9700 road force balancer from the locator on gsp9700.com. Gave them a call and they sound okay. I asked the manager on the phone what he thought about using stick on weights versus the ones that go on the lip on the rim and which one he would use, and he said that typically its more alloy wheels that would have stick on weights. He said he would take a look at my wheels to determine which one, and that the operator also has to "know what he is doing to use stick on weights". Reason I asked about the subject is that I always saw the lip weights on my cars, but in my opinion they are a bit ugly on alloy wheels.

^That shop does alignments too, but I have a mechanic that I would like to get my alignment done at. Would get my tires mounted at the above shop, then my alignment done at the mechanic. I trust the mechanic and am impressed with his work and how he is with customers so I would like him to do the alignment. He gives the spec sheet of the alignment to his customers and explains it. I also trust that he would actually look at the suspension linkages and actually let me know if anything was loose(etc.) that would screw up the alignment, and fix it. He told me he does tires too (which I did not know), but he said he does not have a road force balancer, but has a dynamic balancer. I trust his work but would rather have a road force if its better.

Any advice on all this?
I have read some discussions on here on balancing and read that having a tech that actually knows how to properly use a Hunter gsp9700 is important, and that he does not necessarily have to do the road force balance thing that checks for variations in tire uniformity etc. There are more tire shops with the gsp9700 that I want to talk to as well. I notice on the gsp9700 locator, some shops have something called "StraightTrak", and even fewer have a touch screen("Road Force Touch"). Not sure how important all that is. I see mostly car dealers in the gsp9700 locator too...

Thank you

 

[jacky]

i buy my tires and balance at walmart because it's lifetime balance
our roads here are horrible and sometimes i have mine balanced every 6 months
where i live a good alignment shop is hard to find

 

[Taildragger]

Do an alignment before you buy tires. The tech can tell a lot by looking at your tire wear patterns.

 

[CapriRacer]

First, you have to understand that "Road Force Balance is a bit of a misnomer. It is both balance and a measurement of the "Road Force" (and if you think "Out Of Round" you will be close).

The GSP9700 does a regular dynamic balance (although it does have a static balance setting).

In addition it measures a form of out of round and expresses it as a force (in pounds). That gives the operator some idea of how bad the combination of the tire and the wheel are "out of round".

But where the real power of the machine lies is it has the ability to match the low point of the wheel and match it with the high point of the tire, thereby creating a "rounder" assembly.

 

[GerGa]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
First, you have to understand that "Road Force Balance is a bit of a misnomer. It is both balance and a measurement of the "Road Force" (and if you think "Out Of Round" you will be close).

The GSP9700 does a regular dynamic balance (although it does have a static balance setting).

In addition it measures a form of out of round and expresses it as a force (in pounds). That gives the operator some idea of how bad the combination of the tire and the wheel are "out of round".

But where the real power of the machine lies is it has the ability to match the low point of the wheel and match it with the high point of the tire, thereby creating a "rounder" assembly.

I did read a little about the capabilities other than just the balancing. Probably on one of your posts. It sounds like the real question is whether the tech actually uses those capabilities. Do you think it's tough to judge that when looking for a tire shop?

 

[hpb]

Easy, just have your preferred mechanic do the whole lot. An ordinary wheel balancer works just fine. Stick on or clip on weights, doesn't make a difference, it's just that most people don't want clip on weights scratching their alloys - sounds like it's too late for yours though.

 

[mclasser]

It's definitely true that a RF balance job is only as good as the tech performing it.

I had a long ordeal last year trying to get a decent RF balance. Initially had one done by Mr. Tire and returned 3 times to different locations because they didn't do it right. Turned out the techs were using the GSP9700 but only on the regular setting. I was [censored] that I paid a premium price for this supposedly elite balance but the morons working there failed to use the machine properly. Finally found a local custom truck shop that did the job right. They had to break the beads on all 4 tires to bring down the RF values to 4-6. The car rode smooth as glass afterwards.

Long story short- Read around for reviews about shops and ask them if the tech doing the balance is certified to use the machine, when the machine was last calibrated, and print outs of the before and after RF values. Also ask if you can watch them while they do it.

 

[eljefino]

OE rims usually have at least an inner flange for weights and maybe an outer. Aftermarket might only have an inner, or none at all.

If you don't have an outer lip, the weights have to hide behind the spokes. Since this is closer to the hub, it takes more weight to have the same effect. But, if you can't see it, who cares?

You might get the best luck either tipping the tech and/or mentioning that you're chasing a vibration, and could they advise if they find a rim out of round.

The tech spends most of his day dealing with passengers who don't care that they have bent rims or any other unsolved problems, and will generally not speak up about anything he finds without knowing that you are interested.

 

[ammolab]

Local dealer has a Hunter Road force machine, but the kid they have running it has no idea how to work it. It is way beyond his mental capacity.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

If you don't have an outer lip, the weights have to hide behind the spokes.


They don't have to hide behind the spokes. Some machines have an option to attempt to do that, though.

 

[ccap41]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: eljefino

If you don't have an outer lip, the weights have to hide behind the spokes.


They don't have to hide behind the spokes. Some machines have an option to attempt to do that, though.


My last job our machine had the option. Very rarely was it ever used but it was awesome how well it worked.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: eljefino

If you don't have an outer lip, the weights have to hide behind the spokes.


They don't have to hide behind the spokes. Some machines have an option to attempt to do that, though.


Well and not necessarily literally behind the spokes, but on the flat part of the rim there. It's just so close to center it takes a bunch of weight to effect the 2nd plane balance.

 

[geeman789]

Remember this...

A perfectly "balanced..." tire can still vibrate... and often does. But if you put it on the balance machine, it will show as being balanced. And if you "re-balance..." it, it will again show as being balanced, but still vibrate... tire balance machines are very good at getting the assembly "balanced..." Sure there can be small variations between different machines, but not enough to usually matter.

Road force variation is the cause of most vibrations. Every tire has a high spot, or more accurately a stiff spot. And every wheel has a low spot. The smoothest ride happens when the stiff spot of the tire is matched to the low spot on the wheel.

That is what road force balancing is supposed to do... but it takes patience and attention to detail to get it right. And it takes way more time... so many shops won't roadforce balance unless a wheel / tire comes back with a vibration problem... and many tires will run smooth enough without road force balancing anyway...

 

[Ken2]

Eccentricity and road force variation are not the same thing. An egg shaped tire can have low rf variation, and be in balance, and still shake. Ditto for the round, balanced tire with a signficant road force variation. I was in a local tire shop one day when they were balancing a set of new GY private label tires for a guy's pickup. The tires balanced well, but you could easily see a big run out of eccentricity of the tire I was watching. I think they put it on the rear, and he drove away happy.

In addition to a skilled operator willing to spend the time to do the job right, the machine needs to be in correct calibration. As noted above, many shops use their 9700 machine as a simple dynamic balancer to save time.

No wheels are perfectly uniform, nor are any new tires. Many (not all) new tires have red, or yellow, or both color dots on them. If the steel wheel has a dimple showing its low point of eccentricity, match that with the red dot on the tire showing the region of high road force. (If the tire has both red & yellow dots, and you can use the red dot, ignore the yellow.) Alloy wheels probably had a mark from the factory, but that's likely long gone. If there is no red dot on the tire, or no mark for the low eccentric point on the wheel, put the yellow dot showing the tire's light point by the relatively heavy valve stem for a start at balancing.

So, Ger, don't worry. Tell the shop guys that you want a smooth balance job, and if any of the new tires have excessive run out, you'll reject them. Ask for them to be match-mounted as described above the best they can. You can un-link alignment with the new tire purchase. If your car needs to be aligned, it needs it, new tires or not. If it doesn't need alignment, don't spend the money. For an alignment, I will not accept settings just anywhere within spec. I require that they set the alignment in the center of the specs. They can do that if they're willing, unless something is bent or worn, and you need to know about that.