Laws of Phisics -- Fram Ultra

[Phishin]

Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??

These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.

This chemist, doesn't see how that's possible.

Use our air filters in our cars for example: when the filter is brand new, the flow rate is at it's highest, but this is when the filter efficiency is at its worst. As the filter gets dirty, the flow rate decreases, but the efficiency increases.

I don't see how the Fram Ultra can have both. Everyone wants to mock Wix XP or Napa Platinum's because of their low efficiency. Maybe Wix is telling the truth.

From Donaldson's website talking about full-flow and by-pass filters (it makes my point):

By-pass (Secondary) Filtration:

By-pass filtration is when a small portion of the system’s oil flow (usually 5-10%) is diverted back to the sump or oil pan before reaching the primary filter. A by-pass filter captures smaller particles than the full-flow filter. Because of the increased efficiency of a bypass filter, they are more restrictive. To optimize restriction, a bypass filter should be located in a separate flow path, as illustrated on the right.

 

[Shannow]

Positive displacement pump shifts oil every revolution of the engine.

That much oil passes through the filter.

Until the filter loads enough that DP increases to the point that oil pump relief reduces flow to the filter in compensation, or the filter bypass opens letting dirty oil onto the clean side of the engine.

My old E30, BMW were more worried about the latter than Ford were, BMW having a filter bypass (overall filter restriction limit) multiple times higher than Ford.

 

[Colt45ws]

Synthetic media.
Regular cellulose media has a random distribution of holes and holes sizes. With lots of area that is 'wasted' and cannot pass anything.
Synthetic media looks like a spiders webbing. The material is tightly controlled to produce a specific hole size with little void area that cannot pass flow.

IIRC, Fram Ultra is Synthetic blend.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Synthetic media.
Regular cellulose media has a random distribution of holes and holes sizes. With lots of area that is 'wasted' and cannot pass anything.
Synthetic media looks like a spiders webbing. The material is tightly controlled to produce a specific hole size.

IIRC, Fram Ultra is Synthetic blend.


^^^That.
Synthetic media has depth to it, so it can trap particles without plugging holes in a 2-d surface.

 

[KD0AXS]

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Because as long as the correct filter is used like it's supposed to, it'll still provide enough flow to meet the engine's needs.

Some people seem to think a low-restriction, high-flow filter will somehow allow their engine to be lubricated better. But the oil pump will only demand so much oil so as long as the filter can pass that much through it, so it doesn't matter how efficient or restrictive it is a long as the pump gets enough.

So if an engine will only ever require say 10 gph (I'm pulling that squarely from my posterior) of oil flow, and a typical filter can allow 20 gph to pass through it, a more efficient and 'restrictive' filter that only allows 15 gph is still plenty.

 

[edwardh1]

use more media, have both- flow and filtration

 

[Phishin]

Thanks KD0AXS

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: KD0AXS

^This, but in 3D. Depth loading is not represented in these pics. Imagine layers upon layers of the above 2D visuals.

 

[double vanos]

More and more engines are coming equipped with multi-displacement oil pumps to reduce internal drag on its output. No matter the flow rate of the filter, with these engines there will be reduced flow at times. Just a thought...

 

[Nate1979]

Laws of physics? Come on, post which law or equations you are referring, do the math and post the answer to your question. Dont just state the laws of physics unless you actually know what they are and how they apply.

There are many filters, such as the Pure1 which, though not synthetic, are also very efficient. The flow rate and delta p have been posted on here many times.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: Phishin


These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.

This chemist, doesn't see how that's possible...

I don't see how the Fram Ultra can have both. Everyone wants to mock Wix XP or Napa Platinum's because of their low efficiency. Maybe Wix is telling the truth...


Seems like a whole lot of marketing going on... 99 % sounds really good...

It doesn't make sense that Brand A claims 95 % at 20 micron, and B says 98 % , and FRAM Ultra says 99 %, and along comes WIX, and they publish a lowly 50 % at 20 micron. Why would a respected filtration company shoot themselves in the foot like that... on their premium consumer filter...? Or maybe the WIX XP quoted number of B2 = 20 is a misprint...

Something smells funny ... does anyone have any concrete proof that Fram Ultra filters 99 % efficiency... or that the Wix Xp is "only..." 50 % efficient...?

And, are ISO testing standards, like the industry standard ISO 4548-12, independendly verified by anyone outside the company....? Not that I don't believe a companies claims, but this is the automotive aftermarket after all...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??

These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.



It's quite simple really:

1. The more surface area you have, the higher the efficiency you can have without affecting flow.

2. Synthetic glass media, as others have mentioned, is a depth filtration media and can offer higher flow at higher efficiency than cellulose.

Put #1 and #2 together and you have the Donaldson SYNTEQ filters, the AMSOIL EaO, the Royal Purple, the Purolator Synthetic, the FRAM Ultra....etc. All leverage synthetic glass media and more media. But you pay for that. The glass media is expensive and you are using more of it. Logically, these filters cost more to manufacture and that cost is shifted on to the consumer.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??

These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.



It's quite simple really:

1. The more surface area you have, the higher the efficiency you can have without affecting flow.

2. Synthetic glass media, as others have mentioned, is a depth filtration media and can offer higher flow at higher efficiency than cellulose.

Put #1 and #2 together and you have the Donaldson SYNTEQ filters, the AMSOIL EaO, the Royal Purple, the Purolator Synthetic, the FRAM Ultra....etc. All leverage synthetic glass media and more media. But you pay for that. The glass media is expensive and you are using more of it. Logically, these filters cost more to manufacture and that cost is shifted on to the consumer.



Any thoughts on Wix Xp's apparent low efficiency, using synthetic media ... ?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??

These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.



It's quite simple really:

1. The more surface area you have, the higher the efficiency you can have without affecting flow.

2. Synthetic glass media, as others have mentioned, is a depth filtration media and can offer higher flow at higher efficiency than cellulose.

Put #1 and #2 together and you have the Donaldson SYNTEQ filters, the AMSOIL EaO, the Royal Purple, the Purolator Synthetic, the FRAM Ultra....etc. All leverage synthetic glass media and more media. But you pay for that. The glass media is expensive and you are using more of it. Logically, these filters cost more to manufacture and that cost is shifted on to the consumer.



Any thoughts on Wix Xp's apparent low efficiency, using synthetic media ... ?


They've chosen junk media? LOL!

 

[Nate1979]

^^^ I have two guesses about why Wix publishes 50% @ 20 micron. First, maybe they use single layer synthetic media. Basically very low grade synthetic that can't filter as efficiently as the higher tier filters like the Ultra which use dual layer material. The second is that maybe their efficiency is actually very high @ 40 micron but for consistency they publish the value @ 20 microns. To me this is a very important possibility. Many times efficiencies are published @ 40 micron and this detail gets easily missed and often forgotten when comparing two different filters.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
^^^ I have two guesses about why Wix publishes 50% @ 20 micron. First, maybe they use single layer synthetic media. Basically very low grade synthetic that can't filter as efficiently as the higher tier filters like the Ultra which use dual layer material. The second is that maybe their efficiency is actually very high @ 40 micron but for consistency they publish the value @ 20 microns. To me this is a very important possibility. Many times efficiencies are published @ 40 micron and this detail gets easily missed and often forgotten when comparing two different filters.



The AMSOIL, RP, Donaldson and Fleetguard synthetic filters are all single layer

 

[901Memphis]

The media Wix uses is "capable" of 90% + efficiency, the poor design construction leads to internal leakage during iso testing. There is a reason the Wix/Napa Gold is their top tier filter at 95%"efficiency.

 

[ISO55000]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??

These Fram Ultra filters are LOVED on here. But how can this filter have the best of both worlds? It claims REMARKABLY efficient filtering capabilities, yet extremely high flow rates.

This chemist, doesn't see how that's possible.

Use our air filters in our cars for example: when the filter is brand new, the flow rate is at it's highest, but this is when the filter efficiency is at its worst. As the filter gets dirty, the flow rate decreases, but the efficiency increases.

I don't see how the Fram Ultra can have both. Everyone wants to mock Wix XP or Napa Platinum's because of their low efficiency. Maybe Wix is telling the truth.

From Donaldson's website talking about full-flow and by-pass filters (it makes my point):

By-pass (Secondary) Filtration:

By-pass filtration is when a small portion of the system’s oil flow (usually 5-10%) is diverted back to the sump or oil pan before reaching the primary filter. A by-pass filter captures smaller particles than the full-flow filter. Because of the increased efficiency of a bypass filter, they are more restrictive. To optimize restriction, a bypass filter should be located in a separate flow path, as illustrated on the right.



Then let this Mechanical Engineer help you out because I lean on you chemical guys a lot from time to time. It seems there are a lot of people that don’t fully understand how a lubrication system works or how many of these terms are applied.

Doesn't the basic laws of physics DEMAND that you can't have ultra fine filtration and ultra high flow rates??


Not at all, we do it every day and in some applications it’s mandatory. First thing we have to do is define “fine” and “Flow” as they apply to the system requirements and anticipated contamination levels because all those other words don’t mean a thing. Once that’s done and we already know the nominal system expectations and cleanliness standards we are going to meet it’s a question now of how “long” I expect that filter to last under normal operation.

As that point I can bank filters in parallel, use staged filtration, bypass filtration or simply increase the filter size to give me more surface area and I want adjust system parameters I have a wider range of options.

From Donaldson's website talking about full-flow and by-pass filters (it makes my point):



No, you maybe misunderstood theirs and failed to define those terms.

There is a world of difference between filter bypass (which is a function of the filter) and bypass filtering (a secondary process such as a kidney loop).

On a given filter when it is contaminated to the point the delta makes the internal bypass open- the filtration drops to zero because force takes the path of least resistance and nothing is going through the media. That’s more of a safety device to keep the filter from imploding and/or not starving (thus damaging) the machine.

(Almost all filters are bypassing full flow types)

Bypass filtering however takes a percentage of the flow to the primary filter (the full flow one) and sends it through a finer (full flow) filter and usually pumps to the sump. These are much smaller micron ratings. Not going to even address the staged filtering so even in the same application, in “relative” terms the secondary filtration is going to volumetrically slower than the primary.

None of this will be as problem as long as the reservoir holds enough oil to not starve the sump intake.

Still not fully sure about the point you are making (or refuting). I think it might just be those adverbs and adjectives not being defined in system relative terms.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
And, are ISO testing standards, like the industry standard ISO 4548-12, independendly verified by anyone outside the company....? Not that I don't believe a companies claims, but this is the automotive aftermarket after all ...


Filter companies can't falsely make these efficiency claims referencing the ISO 4548-12 test spec unless they want to get sued by a competitor. You can bet they checkout each others published claims.